Let me take a stab at this. As a non American non voter who is interested in the outcome of the election.
There are 3 parties to this discussion: the Harris campaign (Democrats in general), the Gaza issue voter, and the lesser evil voters.
The Gaza issue voters clearly believe a genocide is occuring, sometimes affecting them personally, and funded by their tax dollars. They would like some concessions from the Dems (the only likely party to take any action) and their only bargaining chip is their vote. It is clear to me that, if a large number of Americans felt strongly and this way, action would happen.
The Harris campaign has been non responsive on this issue, trying to tread the thin line, where they not only look powerless politically, but also unwilling to take a moral stand for what is right.
The lesser evil voters are absolutely correct that she is still better than Trump, and in more ways than just Middle east.
What I think all 3 parties need to do:
The lesser evil camp, instead of mocking the hold outs, needs to pressure the Harris campaign to make a change. Maybe even join them! (See the last point)
The Harris campaign, needs to think long and hard about what they stand for, and the implications of the Republican-lite gamble paying off. There needs to be some fear of losing voters who they cannot take for granted as they shift to the right.
Finally the Gaza voters. Its fine to play the game of chicken, keep screaming as loud as you can demanding change, but ultimately (secretly) get to the ballot and vote D.
the lesser evil camp refuses to pressure the harris campaign and the harris campaign refuses to self reflect on their republican lite gamble; but the gaza voters should give up their only bargaining chip and vote for them anyways?
Yes. That’s how the two party system works. Dems are still miles better than Republicans on the issue, and thus don’t need to improve. It sucks, but that’s the hand that’s been dealt I don’t see any better strategy to help the people of Gaza. If you see one, feel free to share.
There’s also the fact that Harris has to appeal to the electoral college. She’s not just trying to win our votes.
If she took a firm stance on stopping the killing in Gaza the electoral college could very easily hand their votes to trump. Like they did in 2016.I’m fairly certain it’s a big contributing factor as to why democrats keep inching to the right on certain issues. The electoral college has too much power. At the end of the day it’s their votes that count, so Harris has to appeal to them too.
If she took a firm stance on stopping the killing in Gaza the electoral college could very easily hand their votes to trump.
Why couldn’t they do a better job pushing Palestine as a civil rights issue and raising awareness among their voter base like they’ve successfully done with LGBTQ and women’s rights? Or at the very least pretend to support Israel to appear more centrist while stopping the genocide instead of pretending to support Palestinians then handing Israel tons of weapons? Plus it seems like many voters are more concerned about our own economy than what’s happening on the other side of the world, so regarding combining pro-Palestine with their current economic policies I don’t see how that would be a big issue in attracting undecided voters. The only real obstacle I can think of here is donors and the media beholding the party to their interests, which is a much bigger problem than just the electoral college.
Edit: Wait I think I misread your post, I assumed you were talking about swing states controlling the outcome not the electors themselves.
People refusing to vote for Harris becuase of a foreign conflict they understand nothing about is peak stupidty.
Theres a genocide and she is in support of it, not really complicated or hard to fathom.
She’s supporting genocide in the same way you are supporting slavery by buying your electronics from China. When are you turning yourself in and going to prison??
Or is this line of reasoning and logic idiotic and unreasonable as you damn well know it is.
It’s almost like the current and immediate conflict between Israel and Palestinians isn’t the singular thing that the world should have serious concern about, and that realistic solutions to longstanding international diplomacy issues are - wait for it - hard.
Ongoing genocide is at the top of my “what I’m concerned about” list. If it isn’t for you, maybe you should reflect on that a little
Some people think an administration and a party that out right lies about a genocide happening care about them. If someone in a position of power, not only ignore but also support clear evidence of genocide and keep repeating statement that means nothing, they are either agent for a foreign country “AIPAC” or they are in it for themselves and have zero care for poor people.
Don’t forget CUFI, it’s actually bigger and more powerful than AIPAC but doesn’t get as much attention. Christian Zionists are insane psychopaths hell bent on destroying the world (literally)
- North Korea
- Myanmar
- Bangladesh and India
- China
- Hamas and Israel
- Ethiopia
- Democratic Republic of Congo
Or is it only what Israel is doing, and only your concern because you can use it as propaganda to tweak the 2024 presidential election in the US?
The one that is made possible by my tax dollars
So definitely China, then, because it’s super impossible for you to avoid products made there and exported to the US.
And fuck those people being genocided where your tax dollars aren’t going, amirite?
And fuck those people being genocided where your tax dollars aren’t going, amirite?
Isn’t that what you’re saying? Except for all of them including Palestinians?
Ongoing genocide is at the top of my “what I’m concerned about” list.
I’ll ask again: Which one(s)?
The one my government is aiding and defending regularly
I got into this argument the other day. People’s arrogance and lack of common sense was disappointing.
Yeah tell ne qbout it thinking not voting for either one somehow helps trump 😂 same people that failed basic arithmetic clearly. What they really msan to say is that people voting third party are not helping harris…and yeah thats the point and entirely not the same thing.
Gotta love people trying to use maþ to defend someþing ð actual maþ clearly says is ð complete fucking opposite of helpful.
To keep voting blue/red no matter is how you create the very situation we are in. Punishing politicians is how you get them to work for you and not for themselves and pacs.
Which why we need a voting system that can end the duopoly without enormous sacrifice. Ranked Choice Voting can do that. If really hate the duopoly, you have no excuse not to join us and get RCV implemented everywhere. Check out FairVote for more info and to locate movements near you.
I agree
Not voting is not “punishing” anyone, it’s simply abdicating your own power. Political parties aren’t businesses you can punish by boycotting their products.
Parties represent the views of those who support them by some combination of getting involved, organizing, donating, and most importantly voting in BOTH the primaries (for the one who best represents you) and the general for whoever won the primary even if it wasn’t your primary choice. To wield power you have to win elections. To win you have to please those who will vote for you and if your base won’t vote for you, you have to turn to the middle and right to get votes. If your base would show up for you, you could safely move left and still win (republicans always show up and vote for the R, so their party has moved more and more right).
Look what happened after Dobbs. Dem candidates used to be afraid to alienate moderates/conservatives by even mentioning abortion because they needed to get some of those voters to win, but when democrats got motivated by Dobbs and actually turned out for Dem candidates, they immediately stood up loudly for abortion rights and other rights as well, once they knew their base would show up for them. If the Dem base would continue to show up, the party would move more left on the issues, since they’d know they can win with their base and don’t have to worry about alienating conservatives.
I didn’t say anything about not voting. I think people should vote in a strategic way however. And that means at times you need to vote on the other side or back a different politician.
I do agree that voting in primaries is important. I think there are also things that we can do to help move away from this corrupt system. For example, having ranked choice voting.
I do think that a big problem is that people aren’t willing to sacrifice some comfort in the short term for long term gain. If voting temporarily for red because blue isn’t listening to you or being corrupt then when they lose they’ll learn to listen to you next time. If not them, then someone else. People don’t do this and will vote red or blue no matter what which results in shit politicians.
Young voters not voting in primaries is how we got into this situation.
You want politicians who represent you? Gotta vote in primaries! But the elderly, who are a smaller slice of the population, absolutely shit kick the youth in terms of voting in primaries.
Want change? Gotta vote even when it’s not trending on social media.
I do, I vote in primaries and my local elections.
“
somehundreds of thousands of youmaywill die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” is exactly what vote blue no matter who people are saying to arab americans who are uncomitted votersAnd if Trump is elected, ALL of them will die if he gets his way and he admitted as much.
It’s too late in the game to bother educating you on this, but it’s never too late to call out your bullshit.
I will say- it’s very telling how the closer we get to the election, the more .ml accounts are showing up to “nuh-uhhhh! everything any everyone that disagrees with them. Even when proof is provided.
You guys must have recently received your marching orders and are working overtime to accomplish your goal!
Можешь заменить меня? Я иду за едой
https://lemmy.ml/post/21672888
3rd party voting hurts trump more than kamala.
3rd party voting is a good thing
Polls are bullshit, quit relying on them.
You’re right, the polls that show Jill Stein having no chance in this election are bullshit. She does have a chance, I’m voting for her
😅😆🤣😂😄🤣🫠
You’re actually serious with that borsht Gregor?
I think someone has been drinking too much vodka.
Y’all tried with Kennedy and the brain rot got him from fucking that bear 🐻 or whatever. Now it’s Stein which is so absolutely absurd of a candidate to put up against anyone.
Jill Stein is so bland she couldn’t win against a cardboard cutout of herself. She has zero appeal, zero prowess, zero accolades, zero achievements.
If that’s the best Russian intelligence can do, the Putin régimes’ days are numbered.
🤣🤣
3rd party voting hurts trump more than kamala.
And if the third party leftist voters voted for Harris and voted in Democratic primaries, we might not be in this mess.
Democrats have primaries?
If you þink ð solution to democratic softness on Israeli atrocities is to let Trump back into power after he handed ðem East Jerusalem, West Bank, and Golan Heights on a silver platter, you are eiðer a covert zionist agent or an unwitting zionist agent.
Eiðer way, my Amrikani-Falasteeni derriere will consider you as much of an ally as truck flags McGee barely holding back from calling me a towel head and sand n****r mostly because we some ð fuck how have been blessed to avoid peak emboldenment, despite your best efforts trying to “make ð establishment learn ðeir lesson.”
You can tell ðese kids are white because ðey actually believe pulling a karen on ð two party system will get ðem a sit down meeting with democracy’s manager for a socialism coupon or some shit.
