How we vote in the Primary is how we can get money out of politics.
God, I just want to crush the neoliberals, to hear the lamentations of their political commentators, to see their empty suits driven before me, on ONE fucking primary before I die.
This is a hilarious and I relate, but it doesnāt actually help us. Or anyone. One sandwich to a homeless man? Is more actual benefit to the world than saying this.
Unless you go and start a conversation with a Red-hatter this way. Get them riled up and cheering for how you HATE the same people they do, and use it to glean some motivation deeper than āowning the libs.ā
Then you can maybe, just maybe talk to a voter about how society has left them behind too. From experience, they have the same concerns, fears, pressures as what drives people to the Left, its just been twisted by gaslighting propaganda about who we are. Before I could bring this red-hatter to a pride parade, they need a LOT of therapy. But for many there is realistic hope.
You still havenāt commented on Mamdani, and that disappoints me.
This is a hilarious and I relate, but it doesnāt actually help us. Or anyone.
Iā¦ wasnāt trying to help anyone by saying it? Other than venting for my own benefit?
Unless you go and start a conversation with a Red-hatter this way. Get them riled up and cheering for how you HATE the same people they do, and use it to glean some motivation deeper than āowning the libs.ā
Bruh. I lived in a deeply conservative area for most of my life. My social circles were deeply conservative, and I feigned being āapoliticalā to avoid having to go nuclear at a time when my living position was precarious.
Thinking that thereās a commonality of dislike there is falling for the extremely thin mask they put on whenever some liberal gives them pushback. Itās not real. They immediately drop the mask when around people they think are similar to them.
The people they hate arenāt āthe eliteā as you or I would recognize them. The people they hate arenāt āpoliticiansā as you or I would recognize them. They have deeper motivations than āowning the libsā, but not more wholesome ones, I assure you. Being a metaphorical bump-on-a-log who isnāt suspected of liberalism lets you hear some gruesome truths about the principles of conservatives.
You still havenāt commented on Mamdani, and that disappoints me.
ā¦ fucking what? Iāve commented numerous times on Mamdani??
fucking what? Iāve commentedĀ numerousĀ times on Mamdani??
My bad, Iāll dig thru your profile for that.
Bruh. I lived in a deeply conservative area for most of my life. My social circles were deeply conservative, and I feigned being āapoliticalā to avoid having to go nuclear at a time when my living position was precarious.
I feel that, and I can relate. Iām less precarious today.
Thinking that thereās a commonality of dislike there is falling for the extremely thin mask they put on whenever some liberal gives them pushback. Itās not real. They immediately drop the mask when around people they think are similar to them.
Oh, that? Thatās not what Iām talking about for a motive. But in retrospect, I can see how I read that way.
We have to distinguish between a spectrum of rightwingers - the ones who know the dogwhistles are such, and those who are so uneducated they bought the frame of āsmall governmentā as good in its own right because āeveryone agreesā. Like itās a religion they were raised in.
āHating the elitesā (whatever that means) isnāt a coherent political idea as a result. Having 3 jobs and being pissed that youāre still broke? Thatās a coherent political thought they donāt even have the vocabulary to express.
Is the āelite-hateā just antisemitism pretending to look vaguely leftish? Potentially. Or has this dudebro been so starved of literacy that he takes the dogwhistle unironically, but wonāt connect ābillionaireā with that on his own? This is a spectrum.
Iād rather find and talk to the drive of āwhy am I still poor when I work this hard?ā
If an upscale clothing store manager steps to me talking about āthese kids donāt know how to work,ā Iām acknowledging how exhausted he looks. His is not a life of dignity, and I will say this to him. The education system has failed him through his trainees, and he is being asked to pick up the slack. Where are bank tellers going to come from when kids graduate unable to count money? What kind of AI are data scientists going to build when they donāt understand what each statistics distribution describes?
We are failing to invest in our country, and he will either see how this affects him personally, or he will walk away seething. If he brings up DEI or trans anything, or immigrant crime? I have a one-liner to address it and move back to the real conversation - you work too hard bro, and its because our systems are failing.
āHating the elitesā (whatever that means) isnāt a coherent political idea as a result. Having 3 jobs and being pissed that youāre still broke? Thatās a coherent political thought they donāt even have the vocabulary to express.
Alright, but many of them take a perverse pride in poverty, donāt work three jobs, and quite explicitly love the elite. Like, the level of idolization of rich folk who share their dogwhistles that goes on is insane.
If youāve never seen a Trump flag with Ramboās body on it, count yourself lucky. And itās not a new trend either. Wealth means people are āsmartā and āhardworkingā, unless they start talking all liberal-like. The āelitesā they hate are not the people who drain their meagre wealth away from them, theyāre the people that make them feel insecure - doctors, lawyers, career politicians who donāt suck them off.
Is the āelite-hateā just antisemitism pretending to look vaguely leftish? Potentially.
Not even, though. Elite hate isnāt a smokescreen for something more nefarious - step back, take in the full view of their position, and it is literally just that - hate for elites. The issue is that the āelitesā they despise are people who make them feel ālesserā intellectually.
And the worst part is, many of these people are not stupid, inherently. But theyāve been raised to see incuriosity about their preconceptions as a virtue. They will simultaneously express what a BADASS REBEL they are by meekly submitting to conservative social norms and what a GOOD UPSTANDING LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN they are for meekly submitting to conservative norms. And if you point it out, they see no contradiction. Which, in practice if not principle, to be fair, I suppose there isnāt.
I flatter myself a bit in saying that I have a bit of an edge in arguments with most people. I used to like to argue, and got very good at it - now I argue out of exhausted obligation and the knowledge that letting points go uncontested in a social circle lets them multiply, which results in very unpleasant social circles. Let me tell you, the insanity of giving gentle pushback and maneuvering a conservative into a position where they state something in reverse of their position (such as from āpoliticians need more powerā to āpoliticians need less powerā) while still maintaining their original position isā¦
1984 had it fucking right, man. The level of people to engage in doublethink is overwhelming.
If an upscale clothing store manager steps to me talking about āthese kids donāt know how to work,ā Iām acknowledging how exhausted he looks.
I suppose I canāt speak to that. My experience is overwhelmingly with poor, rural, religious conservative America.
I suppose I canāt speak to that. My experience is overwhelmingly with poor, rural, religious conservative America.
My experience is varied. Some of the rural folk, but also the men who think theyāre above that, and think Trump will cut their taxes. Evangelicals too.
Iāve even gone off on some religious nut to ārepent his following an Antichrist,ā which spooked him enough to make him leave.
1984 had it fucking right, man. The level of people to engage in doublethink is overwhelming.
Calling them on that outright rarely does anything, unless we can get someone else to follow up with the same until we wear them down. And they blow up every single time.
Alright, but many of them take a perverse pride in poverty, donāt work three jobs, and quite explicitly love the elite. Like, the level of idolization of rich folkĀ who share their dogwhistlesĀ that goes on is insane.
See, my first instinct is to call those elites they love? Manipulate Liberals. But that takes work and deep cultural access and context to discern, and I rarely have that.
Elite hate isnāt a smokescreen for something more nefarious - step back, take in the full view of their position, and it is literally just that - hate for elites. The issue is that the āelitesā they despise are people who make them feel ālesserā intellectually.
This is why I usually start with a frame of hating Liberals. Out loud. 5-10 minutes of āsounding like Tuckerā to get them nodding along. Invite them to learn. Whether they do or donāt, make them feel smart for even nodding alongā¦ And then switch the frame when we hit a natural pivot point. It doesnāt work every time, but they at least walk away respecting me for not being an elitist Liberal.
And the worst part is, many of these people are notĀ stupid, inherently. But theyāve been raised to see incuriosity about their preconceptions as aĀ virtue. They will simultaneously express what a BADASS REBEL they are by meekly submitting to conservative social norms and what a GOOD UPSTANDING LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN they are for meekly submitting to conservative norms. And if you point it out, they see no contradiction. Which, inĀ practiceĀ if not principle, to be fair, I suppose there isnāt.
Crystalized as āconservative is the new punk rockā in more recent years. I see that.
This is where I talk about being good neighbors. When my neighbor hurts, it hurts me. And if I can look you in the eye? Youāre my neighbor. I owe you some basic respect simply for you being here. How can I help, neighbor?
My experience is varied. Some of the rural folk, but also the men who think theyāre above that, and think Trump will cut their taxes. Evangelicals too.
Iāve even gone off on some religious nut to ārepent his following an Antichrist,ā which spooked him enough to make him leave.
My experience is almost solely with the rural and religious. By the time I lived in a place where the suburban middle-class civility politics variant of right-wing ghoul was a significant population, I had gained a much greater ability to be discerning in who I chose to be in my social circle.
Calling them on that outright rarely does anything, unless we can get someone else to follow up with the same until we wear them down. And they blow up every single time.
Iām honestly of the opinion that 95% of them are unsalvageable by any means.
The point of hammering them on these points is to make them ashamed and quiet again to reduce the spread and acceptance of their vile shite.
You canāt cure the disease, but quarantine can reduce its spread.
See, my first instinct is to call those elites they love? Manipulate Liberals. But that takes work and deep cultural access and context to discern, and I rarely have that.
Unfortunately, calling the elites that they love āliberalsā or āsocialistsā just gets them angry at you for daring to defame their good holsum corporate masters. Even before Elongated Muskrat was a conservative darling, trying to point out that he was sucking government subsidies at great cost to the taxpayer got many conservatives I spoke with genuinely angry. āYes, heās a businessman, that makes him smart!ā
This is why I usually start with a frame of hating Liberals. Out loud. 5-10 minutes of āsounding like Tuckerā to get them nodding along. Invite them to learn. Whether they do or donāt, make them feel smart for even nodding alongā¦ And then switch the frame when we hit a natural pivot point. It doesnāt work every time, but they at least walk away respecting me for not being an elitist Liberal.
See, when that pivot point hits, the conservatives Iāve known all either laugh it off or get angry. Itās not āOh wow, I actually agree with these points!ā, but āHa ha, thatās a neat trick, like asking someone for Pen 15ā or āThis damn dirty crypto-liberal is trying to trick me with his mind games!ā
See, when that pivot point hits, the conservatives Iāve known all either laugh it off or get angry. Itās not āOh wow, I actually agree with these points!ā, but āHa ha, thatās a neat trick, like asking someone for Pen 15ā or āThis damn dirty crypto-liberal is trying to trick me with his mind games!ā
Practice helps. So does being a stranger thatās visibly working class. I suspect youāve run into a wall for being known and as a āhostileā for being a āliberalā. My best success comes from when I can get around that, one on one. Got a former coworker who still goes to that evangelical church, but watches Democracy Now every day.
But alsoā¦ Yeah, that happens. Sometimes it makes people question their ideas, sometimes weāre sewing seeds for someone else to water. And thatās okay.
In a very real way, we are talking about Christian-style evangelism.
Practice helps. So does being a stranger thatās visibly working class. I suspect youāve run into a wall for being known and as a āhostileā for being a āliberalā.
At the time, I was very much a good young man who never claimed to be anything more than a moderate around these people. Those who knew me largely took it as what we might call ādebatelordingā rather than seriously.
Me, having just led them by the nose to water and watching them not drink: āIām just saying, you have to consider all sides of the issue.ā
āWhatabout whatabout whatabout? Ha ha ha, letās not talk politics anywayā
In any case, I stopped wasting my time years ago, and wear my socialism on my sleeve nowadays.
Still digging, not seeing your comments on Mamdani.
But the way you run defense for Biden and Cuomo without actually committing to them? Doesnāt leave me hopeful that I can call you a ācomradeā in any sense.
Critiquing the Soviet Union? With Nuance? Actually Based. I wanna see what happens when you read William Hintonās (admitted racist) firsthand account of the Chinese Cultural Revolution in his book āFanShenā and his secondhand account of the reversal in āShenFanā.
I use the first as evidence that we can do better when we talk to each other - that āground gameā you maligned in this thread. I use the second to describe the Strong-Stateās problem of accountability for leadershipās incompetence, and the incentive for workers to outright Lie as a survival measure.
There is hope for you yet. But I would love to hear you explain what soaking in a rightwing geography has pushed you to.
And yes, I still want to hear your thoughts on Zohran Mamdani. Theyāre buried. Either I need a new interface that makes this search easier, or a restatement.
Still digging, not seeing your comments on Mamdani.
Simply searching āMamdaniā by user āPugJesusā comes up with:
In any case, a major congratulations and good luck to Zohran Mamdani, the democratic socialist who won the Dem Party primaries for NYC mayor!
I wouldnāt count on it. Party elites are notoriously resistant to any kind of positive change. The only way we can change the Dem Party is by forcing it to change - by ensuring progressive candidates like Mr. Mamdani continue to win going forward.
Hopefully, the strained democracy of the US will hold up long enough for that to matter.
Damn, my hopes for Mamdani just got even higher. Low turnout under ordinary circumstances give high-enthusiasm candidates an advantage, by that enthusiastic baseās relative size to the ordinarily voting electorate.
Fucking fascist ghouls. Good on Mamdani for not putting up with it, though itās horrifying that this is already a fucking concern.
(someone else) If we fill them with Zohran Mamdanis, on the other handā¦
Me:
But the way you run defense for Biden and Cuomo without actually committing to them? Doesnāt leave me hopeful that I can call you a ācomradeā in any sense.
I āran defenseā for Biden when he was the only fucking candidate with a realistic shot at beating the fascist. Sorry for not wanting more Palestinians to die, for not wanting Ukrainians to be murdered by genocidal Russian imperialists, for not wanting literal millions abroad to starve and waste from sickness for lack of US aid, for not wanting US LGBT folk and marginalized groups to be murdered en masse, and, selfishly, for not wanting to have my health insurance as a Filthy Poorā¢ with a chronic disease stripped so I die vomiting blood on my bathroom floor?
Iāve literally never ran defense for Cuomo, in any way shape or form.
There is hope for you yet. But I would love to hear you explain what soaking in a rightwing geography has pushed you to.
Cynicism. The idea that these people are ready to be our comrades with just the right phrasing is, unfortunately, insanity. The core issue is not misinformation, or the wrong policies - otherwise you would be right, there is hope. The core issue has been the development and cultivation of sickened values over the past 70 years that are directly contrary to functional politics.
Values are much harder to change than political allegiances, and political allegiances are already notoriously hard to change. Whatever the solution is to our problem, it doesnāt include turning rural fascists into comrades any more than the Dem attempts to turn rural fascists into conservatives has worked.
Simply searching āMamdaniā by user āPugJesusā comes up with:
Thanks for the tutorial.
And yeah, Iām falling into an old pattern of arguing with people I agree with. Im actually arguing against a real Liberal I see elsewhere, but donāt have the standing to argue against without social consequence.
Damn. My bad comrade.
Cynicism. The idea that these people are ready to be our comrades withĀ justĀ the right phrasing is, unfortunately, insanity. The core issue is not misinformation, or the wrong policies - otherwise you would be right, there is hope. The core issue has been the development and cultivation of sickenedĀ valuesĀ over the past 70 years that are directly contrary to functional politics.
100% real. But a LOT of them have this double think about the older values too. The values they act on come from a cultivated fear thatās been maintained so long its seeped into the whole ass person. This is the core of what Fascist Movements look like, unironically.
They need cult-deprogramming. Which means extracting them from their entire current cultural context, and replacing it. This is easiest with an online-only dudebro thatāll probably end up a mass shooter if we donāt. But a whole community? A whole Trump-worshipping church?
The āRepublican Jesusā memes never escape Liberal circles. They need someone they can recognize as their own to call them out. I wonāt be happy until thereās protests outside of Megachurches calling the Pastor a āGrifting Antichristā, telling the Parrish to Repent this Sin.
No worries. Itās the internet, no one knows Iām really a dog socialist. And I often argue on practical grounds, with what can be achieved in this immensely right-wing country, so I understand that I can come off as more āliberalā than I am. But ultimately, my position is that action is only sustainable with popular support, so we need to do what we can now to minimize the damage of the immediate actions of government, and work to establish the conditions for popular support of actual leftist policy.
Doing just the former is putting off death another four years and accepting injustice - better than the alternative of embracing death and intensifying injustice, but obviously not good. Doing just the latter is self-defeating; like handing your enemies a hatchet to bury in your back. The least one could (and should) do is dull the bladeās edge and put it on a high shelf before turning away to write your manifesto.
The āRepublican Jesusā memes never escape Liberal circles. They need someone they can recognize as their own to call them out. I wonāt be happy until thereās protests outside of Megachurches calling the Pastor a āGrifting Antichristā, telling the Parrish to Repent this Sin.
As much as Iād love a modern Hussite movement, warts and all, I think the evangelicals have hit on a psychological profile thatās too refined and modern to be simply dislodged.
Unfortunately, I think only time and decreasing religiosity in each passing generation will defeat them.
God, I just want to crush the neoliberals, to hear the lamentations of their political commentators, to see their empty suits driven before me, on ONE fucking primary before I die.
This is a hilarious and I relate, but it doesnāt actually help us. Or anyone. One sandwich to a homeless man? Is more actual benefit to the world than saying this.
Unless you go and start a conversation with a Red-hatter this way. Get them riled up and cheering for how you HATE the same people they do, and use it to glean some motivation deeper than āowning the libs.ā
Then you can maybe, just maybe talk to a voter about how society has left them behind too. From experience, they have the same concerns, fears, pressures as what drives people to the Left, its just been twisted by gaslighting propaganda about who we are. Before I could bring this red-hatter to a pride parade, they need a LOT of therapy. But for many there is realistic hope.
You still havenāt commented on Mamdani, and that disappoints me.
Iā¦ wasnāt trying to help anyone by saying it? Other than venting for my own benefit?
Bruh. I lived in a deeply conservative area for most of my life. My social circles were deeply conservative, and I feigned being āapoliticalā to avoid having to go nuclear at a time when my living position was precarious.
Thinking that thereās a commonality of dislike there is falling for the extremely thin mask they put on whenever some liberal gives them pushback. Itās not real. They immediately drop the mask when around people they think are similar to them.
The people they hate arenāt āthe eliteā as you or I would recognize them. The people they hate arenāt āpoliticiansā as you or I would recognize them. They have deeper motivations than āowning the libsā, but not more wholesome ones, I assure you. Being a metaphorical bump-on-a-log who isnāt suspected of liberalism lets you hear some gruesome truths about the principles of conservatives.
ā¦ fucking what? Iāve commented numerous times on Mamdani??
My bad, Iāll dig thru your profile for that.
I feel that, and I can relate. Iām less precarious today.
Oh, that? Thatās not what Iām talking about for a motive. But in retrospect, I can see how I read that way.
We have to distinguish between a spectrum of rightwingers - the ones who know the dogwhistles are such, and those who are so uneducated they bought the frame of āsmall governmentā as good in its own right because āeveryone agreesā. Like itās a religion they were raised in.
āHating the elitesā (whatever that means) isnāt a coherent political idea as a result. Having 3 jobs and being pissed that youāre still broke? Thatās a coherent political thought they donāt even have the vocabulary to express.
Is the āelite-hateā just antisemitism pretending to look vaguely leftish? Potentially. Or has this dudebro been so starved of literacy that he takes the dogwhistle unironically, but wonāt connect ābillionaireā with that on his own? This is a spectrum.
Iād rather find and talk to the drive of āwhy am I still poor when I work this hard?ā
If an upscale clothing store manager steps to me talking about āthese kids donāt know how to work,ā Iām acknowledging how exhausted he looks. His is not a life of dignity, and I will say this to him. The education system has failed him through his trainees, and he is being asked to pick up the slack. Where are bank tellers going to come from when kids graduate unable to count money? What kind of AI are data scientists going to build when they donāt understand what each statistics distribution describes?
We are failing to invest in our country, and he will either see how this affects him personally, or he will walk away seething. If he brings up DEI or trans anything, or immigrant crime? I have a one-liner to address it and move back to the real conversation - you work too hard bro, and its because our systems are failing.
Alright, but many of them take a perverse pride in poverty, donāt work three jobs, and quite explicitly love the elite. Like, the level of idolization of rich folk who share their dogwhistles that goes on is insane.
If youāve never seen a Trump flag with Ramboās body on it, count yourself lucky. And itās not a new trend either. Wealth means people are āsmartā and āhardworkingā, unless they start talking all liberal-like. The āelitesā they hate are not the people who drain their meagre wealth away from them, theyāre the people that make them feel insecure - doctors, lawyers, career politicians who donāt suck them off.
Not even, though. Elite hate isnāt a smokescreen for something more nefarious - step back, take in the full view of their position, and it is literally just that - hate for elites. The issue is that the āelitesā they despise are people who make them feel ālesserā intellectually.
And the worst part is, many of these people are not stupid, inherently. But theyāve been raised to see incuriosity about their preconceptions as a virtue. They will simultaneously express what a BADASS REBEL they are by meekly submitting to conservative social norms and what a GOOD UPSTANDING LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN they are for meekly submitting to conservative norms. And if you point it out, they see no contradiction. Which, in practice if not principle, to be fair, I suppose there isnāt.
I flatter myself a bit in saying that I have a bit of an edge in arguments with most people. I used to like to argue, and got very good at it - now I argue out of exhausted obligation and the knowledge that letting points go uncontested in a social circle lets them multiply, which results in very unpleasant social circles. Let me tell you, the insanity of giving gentle pushback and maneuvering a conservative into a position where they state something in reverse of their position (such as from āpoliticians need more powerā to āpoliticians need less powerā) while still maintaining their original position isā¦
1984 had it fucking right, man. The level of people to engage in doublethink is overwhelming.
I suppose I canāt speak to that. My experience is overwhelmingly with poor, rural, religious conservative America.
My experience is varied. Some of the rural folk, but also the men who think theyāre above that, and think Trump will cut their taxes. Evangelicals too.
Iāve even gone off on some religious nut to ārepent his following an Antichrist,ā which spooked him enough to make him leave.
Calling them on that outright rarely does anything, unless we can get someone else to follow up with the same until we wear them down. And they blow up every single time.
See, my first instinct is to call those elites they love? Manipulate Liberals. But that takes work and deep cultural access and context to discern, and I rarely have that.
This is why I usually start with a frame of hating Liberals. Out loud. 5-10 minutes of āsounding like Tuckerā to get them nodding along. Invite them to learn. Whether they do or donāt, make them feel smart for even nodding alongā¦ And then switch the frame when we hit a natural pivot point. It doesnāt work every time, but they at least walk away respecting me for not being an elitist Liberal.
Crystalized as āconservative is the new punk rockā in more recent years. I see that.
This is where I talk about being good neighbors. When my neighbor hurts, it hurts me. And if I can look you in the eye? Youāre my neighbor. I owe you some basic respect simply for you being here. How can I help, neighbor?
My experience is almost solely with the rural and religious. By the time I lived in a place where the suburban middle-class civility politics variant of right-wing ghoul was a significant population, I had gained a much greater ability to be discerning in who I chose to be in my social circle.
Iām honestly of the opinion that 95% of them are unsalvageable by any means.
The point of hammering them on these points is to make them ashamed and quiet again to reduce the spread and acceptance of their vile shite.
You canāt cure the disease, but quarantine can reduce its spread.
Unfortunately, calling the elites that they love āliberalsā or āsocialistsā just gets them angry at you for daring to defame their good holsum corporate masters. Even before Elongated Muskrat was a conservative darling, trying to point out that he was sucking government subsidies at great cost to the taxpayer got many conservatives I spoke with genuinely angry. āYes, heās a businessman, that makes him smart!ā
See, when that pivot point hits, the conservatives Iāve known all either laugh it off or get angry. Itās not āOh wow, I actually agree with these points!ā, but āHa ha, thatās a neat trick, like asking someone for Pen 15ā or āThis damn dirty crypto-liberal is trying to trick me with his mind games!ā
Practice helps. So does being a stranger thatās visibly working class. I suspect youāve run into a wall for being known and as a āhostileā for being a āliberalā. My best success comes from when I can get around that, one on one. Got a former coworker who still goes to that evangelical church, but watches Democracy Now every day.
But alsoā¦ Yeah, that happens. Sometimes it makes people question their ideas, sometimes weāre sewing seeds for someone else to water. And thatās okay.
In a very real way, we are talking about Christian-style evangelism.
At the time, I was very much a good young man who never claimed to be anything more than a moderate around these people. Those who knew me largely took it as what we might call ādebatelordingā rather than seriously.
Me, having just led them by the nose to water and watching them not drink: āIām just saying, you have to consider all sides of the issue.ā
āWhatabout whatabout whatabout? Ha ha ha, letās not talk politics anywayā
In any case, I stopped wasting my time years ago, and wear my socialism on my sleeve nowadays.
Still digging, not seeing your comments on Mamdani.
But the way you run defense for Biden and Cuomo without actually committing to them? Doesnāt leave me hopeful that I can call you a ācomradeā in any sense.
Critiquing the Soviet Union? With Nuance? Actually Based. I wanna see what happens when you read William Hintonās (admitted racist) firsthand account of the Chinese Cultural Revolution in his book āFanShenā and his secondhand account of the reversal in āShenFanā.
I use the first as evidence that we can do better when we talk to each other - that āground gameā you maligned in this thread. I use the second to describe the Strong-Stateās problem of accountability for leadershipās incompetence, and the incentive for workers to outright Lie as a survival measure.
There is hope for you yet. But I would love to hear you explain what soaking in a rightwing geography has pushed you to.
And yes, I still want to hear your thoughts on Zohran Mamdani. Theyāre buried. Either I need a new interface that makes this search easier, or a restatement.
Simply searching āMamdaniā by user āPugJesusā comes up with:
(someone else) If we fill them with Zohran Mamdanis, on the other handā¦
Me:
I āran defenseā for Biden when he was the only fucking candidate with a realistic shot at beating the fascist. Sorry for not wanting more Palestinians to die, for not wanting Ukrainians to be murdered by genocidal Russian imperialists, for not wanting literal millions abroad to starve and waste from sickness for lack of US aid, for not wanting US LGBT folk and marginalized groups to be murdered en masse, and, selfishly, for not wanting to have my health insurance as a Filthy Poorā¢ with a chronic disease stripped so I die vomiting blood on my bathroom floor?
Iāve literally never ran defense for Cuomo, in any way shape or form.
Cynicism. The idea that these people are ready to be our comrades with just the right phrasing is, unfortunately, insanity. The core issue is not misinformation, or the wrong policies - otherwise you would be right, there is hope. The core issue has been the development and cultivation of sickened values over the past 70 years that are directly contrary to functional politics.
Values are much harder to change than political allegiances, and political allegiances are already notoriously hard to change. Whatever the solution is to our problem, it doesnāt include turning rural fascists into comrades any more than the Dem attempts to turn rural fascists into conservatives has worked.
Thanks for the tutorial.
And yeah, Iām falling into an old pattern of arguing with people I agree with. Im actually arguing against a real Liberal I see elsewhere, but donāt have the standing to argue against without social consequence.
Damn. My bad comrade.
100% real. But a LOT of them have this double think about the older values too. The values they act on come from a cultivated fear thatās been maintained so long its seeped into the whole ass person. This is the core of what Fascist Movements look like, unironically.
They need cult-deprogramming. Which means extracting them from their entire current cultural context, and replacing it. This is easiest with an online-only dudebro thatāll probably end up a mass shooter if we donāt. But a whole community? A whole Trump-worshipping church?
The āRepublican Jesusā memes never escape Liberal circles. They need someone they can recognize as their own to call them out. I wonāt be happy until thereās protests outside of Megachurches calling the Pastor a āGrifting Antichristā, telling the Parrish to Repent this Sin.
No worries. Itās the internet, no one knows Iām really a
dogsocialist. And I often argue on practical grounds, with what can be achieved in this immensely right-wing country, so I understand that I can come off as more āliberalā than I am. But ultimately, my position is that action is only sustainable with popular support, so we need to do what we can now to minimize the damage of the immediate actions of government, and work to establish the conditions for popular support of actual leftist policy.Doing just the former is putting off death another four years and accepting injustice - better than the alternative of embracing death and intensifying injustice, but obviously not good. Doing just the latter is self-defeating; like handing your enemies a hatchet to bury in your back. The least one could (and should) do is dull the bladeās edge and put it on a high shelf before turning away to write your manifesto.
As much as Iād love a modern Hussite movement, warts and all, I think the evangelicals have hit on a psychological profile thatās too refined and modern to be simply dislodged.
Unfortunately, I think only time and decreasing religiosity in each passing generation will defeat them.