He did do some good things, but he failed the test given to him by history same as Biden by not ending the War on Terror after the death of Bin Laden.
In what way did you want him to āendā the āWar on Terrorā, itself an immensely nebulous term for a broad range of foreign policy issues regarding non-state actors?
Perhaps nonintervention against ISIS? Or giving Afghanistan over to the Taliban ten years ahead of time? What form of āendingā the War on Terror are we looking at? What āgolden opportunityā did he have?
Obama was an insufficient solution to Americaās post-Bush problems. But the urge to counter the hagiography of some liberals about Obama with a broad-spectrum condemnation of the Obamaās administrationās policies is not really a reasonable response.
You replied to me in another comment asking how Obama was a step towards fascism, so consider this a response to that too.
In what way did you want him to āendā the āWar on Terrorā, itself an immensely nebulous term for a broad range of foreign policy issues regarding non-state actors?
Stop fighting and bombing people in the Middle East for the sake of American imperialist ambitions, undo authoritarian post-9/11 legislation (see: ICE), return American society and politics to normalcy and not contribute to the expansion of executive power.
Perhaps nonintervention against ISIS? Or giving Afghanistan over to the Taliban ten years ahead of time?
Anti-ISIS intervention is more complicated, not the least because it started more than two full years after the death of Bin Laden, but Afghanistan? Absolutely, unequivocally yes. Afghanistan was never Americaās to āgive overā to anyone.
What āgolden opportunityā did he have?
Again, the death of Bin Laden. There was absolutely no reason for the war in Afghanistan to turn into an anti-Taliban crusade; he absolutely could and should have said āour job here is doneā and left. Not doing so, alongside his expansion of the war on terror into new fronts, protected fascism in America from what shouldāve been a leftward swing following Bushās presidency.
Obama was an insufficient solution to Americaās post-Bush problems. But the urge to counter the hagiography of some liberals about Obama with a broad-spectrum condemnation of the Obamaās administrationās policies is not really a reasonable response.
Insufficient is an understatement. American fascism (what will go on to become MAGA) grew through two main vectors: war and economic uncertainty. Obama did basically nothing to address the former and only took halfhearted measures to address the latter. He did some good things, but in the face of what he paved the way for, his accomplishments are about as important as whatever Hindenburg was up to before appointing Hitler as chancellor.
Stop fighting and bombing people in the Middle East for the sake of American imperialist ambitions,
Again, I asked for specifics, not generic descriptions which are passed around between people with a poor understanding of US foreign policy. What āfighting and bombing people in the Middle Eastā are we talking about, if not ISIS?
Youā¦ you do realize that the President doesnāt have the power to do that unilaterally, right?
return American society and politics to normalcy
The same American society and politics which was spiraling into chaos over having a dreaded Black man as president? Goodness me, why didnāt Obama just make society and politics normal again??
and not contribute to the expansion of executive power.
This is a legitimate criticism.
Anti-ISIS intervention is more complicated, not the least because it started more than two full years after the death of Bin Laden, but Afghanistan? Absolutely, unequivocally yes. Afghanistan was never Americaās to āgive overā to anyone.
So with the government of Afghanistan specifically requesting that we not leave and let the country fall to foreign-funded fighters who wanted to impose a brutal authoritarian regime which was promising such delightful things as banning elections, womenās education, and speaking in public, that the US, morally, should have pulled out anyway against the will of Afghanistan because [checks notes] we are Bad Camp and Isolationism is the only route, even for ongoing issues.
As Ukraine is not ourās to āgive overā to anyone, should we cut aid to them as well? After all, it would be terrible if we were meddling in things that didnāt involve us again.
Again, the death of Bin Laden. There was absolutely no reason for the war in Afghanistan to turn into an anti-Taliban crusade;
āTo turn intoā
Bruh, are you being serious?
Do you not remember the Afghanistan War at all?
he absolutely could and should have said āour job here is doneā and left.
So your argument is that America has no duty to assist countries after invading them; that after an invasion, the correct response is not to attempt to ensure stability by reinforcing a democratically elected government, but instead hand over all locals who helped or were indifferent to us to reactionary paramilitaries so they can be tortured to death and their families brutalized with them?
For that fucking matter, do you understand the power that the US President has with regards to wars? Executive power makes forcing a war relatively easy, but wars are approved and directed in great detail by legislation from Congress.
Not doing so, alongside his expansion of the war on terror into new fronts,
What new fronts were those, again?
American fascism (what will go on to become MAGA) grew through two main vectors: war and economic uncertainty. Obama did basically nothing to address the former and only took halfhearted measures to address the latter.
Insufficiency in opposition is a far fucking cry from a step towards towards fascism.
He did some good things, but in the face of what he paved the way for, his accomplishments are about as important as whatever Hindenburg was up to before appointing Hitler as chancellor.
Thatās a grotesque comparison without merit. If you want to make comparisons to Weimar Germany, Marx or Muller would be more correct.
I donāt give a damn about arguing Obamaās āgood thingsā, as those wouldnāt wash away the bad anyway; my point is that playing the mirror image of liberals who put on nostalgia glasses for Obama is not really a reasonable alternative. My argument is against incorrect condemnations of Obamaās policy on the grounds that the condemnations are incorrect, not that Obama deserves a C instead of an F on his report card, or that Obama did Really Great Work, Honest elsewhere.
To preface, Iām trying to make the argument that Obama continuing (and in some cases expanding) American operations in the Middle East contributed to fascism in America, not trying to pass moral judgement on him, so Iām going to keep my response to morality-based arguments short. Let me know if you want me a longer response to something.
What āfighting and bombing people in the Middle Eastā are we talking about, if not ISIS?
Well aside from the obvious Afghanistan, you have Libya, Somalia and other places where America is/was conducting so-called counterterrorism operations. If Obama had stopped these conflicts, itād have been possible to make a decision on fighting ISIS (which America started doing way after the death of Bin Laden) with less war on terror baggage.
Youā¦ you do realize that the President doesnāt have the power to do that unilaterally, right?
Half the things I mentioned arenāt strictly within the preview of the president. However, Obama was also the head of the majority party in Congress and came at the head of a hard leftward swing after Bush. He couldāve likely made significant progress on this front if he wanted. At the very least, he had a massive podium from which he couldāve pushed for de-Bushification.
The same American society and politics which was spiraling into chaos over having a dreaded Black man as president? Goodness me, why didnāt Obama just make society and politics normal again??
I think itās obvious that this is not what I was talking about. Black man as president fever and war fever were separate phenomena, and while there was very little Obama couldāve done about the former short of ceasing to exist (and probably even then), there was a lot he couldāve done about the former, at least on the blue side of the political spectrum.
So with the government of Afghanistan specifically requesting that we not leaveā¦
Making an exception here, though I probably shouldnāt.
The so-caled government of Afghanistan was better described as the American-installed occupation government, and hereās the thing: The people of Afghanistan were never going to accept an occupation government; as long as the American-installed government was fighting on behalf of and the Taliban were fighting against America, there was only one way this was going to end short of straight up American colonial rule. Itās not pretty, but what weāre seeing now is the start of the painful and sometimes bloody process of Afghans forging their own path forward, and within the context of that process the only thing American presence did was make the Taiban that much stronger by giving them very impressive and very real anti-imperial credentials. When the people of Afghanistan get rid of the Taliban, theyāll have done it in spite of, not because of, American interference. Hell, what America turned into its so-called democratic government was the North Afghanistan Alliance, an organic anti-Taliban resistance organization; now 25 years later that doesnāt exist and Taliban rule is unchallenged. Okay rant over, back on topic.
As Ukraine is not ourās to āgive overā to anyone, should we cut aid to them as well?
Nowhere does my argument imply that given that America isnāt at war with Russia, probably for the good of everyone involved.
So your argument is that America has no duty to assist countries after invading themā¦
See the bit on Afghanistan.
Do you not remember the Afghanistan War at all?
Nope. If it was an anti-Taliban crusade from the start, then that was a futile endeavor from the start and never shouldāve continued as long as it did and the point stands anyway.
What new fronts were those, again?
Libya and Yemen?
Insufficiency in opposition is a far fucking cry from a step towards towards fascism.
He took the momentum against the factors that were building up fascism in the US (I focused on the war on terror here, but economic and cultural reasons were obviously just as important) and smothered it via his inaction. He was not just insufficient; in the areas that mattered, he did either nothing or basically nothing. My condemnation of his administration is based on the fact that he was fundamentally barking up the wrong tree while intentionally ignoring the right tree, effectively providing cover for the right from the left. He was a step towards fascism in the same away that throwing away your life jacket is a step towards sinking.
Thatās a grotesque comparison without merit. If you want to make comparisons to Weimar Germany, Marx or Muller would be more correct.
Itās admittedly a very loose comparison, but he was a political leader whose career (Iām predicting) becomes historically irrelevant due to his failure to stop fascism.
Well aside from the obvious Afghanistan, you have Libya, Somalia and other places where America is/was conducting so-called counterterrorism operations.
Libya was not part of the War on Terror and American involvement was minimal. I guess unless your position is that the UN can go fuck itself.
Somalia youāre looking at minimal involvement at the behest of the Somali government, the UN, AND the African Union, overwhelmingly not until 2015 and 2016. At some point, what youāre arguing for isnāt āRespect national sovereigntyā but āNational sovereignty does not grant the right to request help from Bad Campā
If Obama had stopped these conflicts, itād have been possible to make a decision on fighting ISIS (which America started doing way after the death of Bin Laden) with less war on terror baggage.
Would it? What arguments made here would suddenly disappear if Obama had reduced our involvement in Somalia but fought ISIS anyway? What arguments would even be weakened?
Half the things I mentioned arenāt strictly within the preview of the president. However, Obama was also the head of the majority party in Congress and came at the head of a hard leftward swing after Bush. He couldāve likely made significant progress on this front if he wanted.
Thatās not a realistic assessment of US politics in 2009. Not even close. Fuckās sake, have you seen the Dem party today, wherein not only are the average ghouls more left-amiable than they used to be (damnation by faint praise, mind), but with the Blue Dogs almost entirely massacred and tossed out of the party? Youāre saying that Obama, who struggled to pass the landmark legislation he campaigned on, could easily have made āsignificant progressā on moving the country in some vague leftward direction when his own party was already balking at the very moderate proposals he was making away from right-wing shitheaddery? Not to mention the absolute opposition of the entirety of the GOP, which was unprecedented.
The so-caled government of Afghanistan was better described as the American-installed occupation government
Jesus fucking Christ, what?
The people of Afghanistan were never going to accept an occupation government
Oh, cool, so they havenāt accepted the Taliban, the occupation government of Pakistan, right?
Oh, āanti-imperialismā only counts against Bad Camp?
This utterly blinkered āanalysisā on the left is utter dogshit with no respect for the history of Afghanistan or its current society.
as long as the American-installed government was fighting on behalf of and the Taliban were fighting against America, there was only one way this was going to end short of straight up American colonial rule. Itās not pretty, but what weāre seeing now is the start of the painful and sometimes bloody process of Afghans forging their own path forward and within the context of that process the only thing American presence did was make the Taiban that much stronger by giving them very impressive and very real anti-imperial credentials.
What the fuck.
No. Weāre fucking done here. I donāt play games with Taliban apologists.
No. Weāre fucking done here. I donāt play games with Taliban apologists.
What the fuck? Iām pretty sure I implied that the process of āforging their own path forwardā would imply getting rid of the Taliban, and that American interference was bad because it strengthened the Taliban. If thatās Taliban apologia, then Iām Barack Obama. To repeat, fuck the Taliban and fuck the war on terror for helping the Taliban consolidate power. This isnāt rocket science. Now that Uncle Sam is gone, Afghans have a real shot at getting rid of the Taliban and putting half-decent leadership in charge.
What the fuck? Iām pretty sure I implied that the process of āforging their own path forwardā would imply getting rid of the Taliban, and that American interference was bad because it strengthened the Taliban. If thatās Taliban apologia, then Iām Barack Obama. To repeat, fuck the Taliban and fuck the war on terror for helping the Taliban consolidate power. This isnāt rocket science.
āThe Taliban had to win for the Afghan people to be truly free because of Anti-Imperialismā is campist dogshit of the same fucking variety as apologia for the theocracy of Iran, or, from another ideological standpoint, the āVanguard Stateā of the USSR and PRC. Unless what youāre arguing for is some variety of accelerationism, wherein the Taliban taking control of the major levers of power in the country will Invigorate The Heroic Resistanceā¢, in which case itās slightly less vile, considerably more idiotic, and no less campist in regarding the actual occupation government of the Taliban as preferable to the Dogs Of The Great Satan. It doesnāt fucking matter that you believe that in the long run the Taliban should be cast off if you think its appropriate in the āshort-termā of fucking decades of throwing acid on little girlsā faces for receiving an education and banning womenās voices from being heard in public by a totalitarian theocracy puppet state of a foreign intelligence agency without the slightest hint of democratic pretensions and an extensive history of extrajudicial murder in excess of the already-quite-violent situation in pre-2021 Afghanistan.
and that American interference was bad because it strengthened the Taliban
Would you like to fucking remind me what the position of the Taliban was like before āAmerican interferenceā.
Would you like to remind me what the position of the Taliban is now?
The primary difference is that the NRF doesnāt have a figure like the Northern Alliance had in Ahmad Shah Massoud, a figure who could unite disparate personalities (and it is a matter in large part of personalities in coalition building in a country without a strong sense of nationhood (and if you say that Afghanistan does have a strong sense of nationhood, I will unfortunately not be surprised) or broader ideological unity) in resistance to the Taliban. And Ahmad Shah Massoud was assassinated before the American intervention in the country.
The whole fucking idea that the Taliban came into power because of āanti-imperialistā credentials is a fucking armchair leftist take with no understanding of the history or society of Afghanistan at present, nor, for that matter, of social movements in general or of the practical position of the Taliban itself. The Taliban remained deeply unpopular in most of Afghanistan, and are a continuing contributor to the deep and declining dissatisfaction in Afghanistan today.
The deeper issue is that this is all in-line with your previous positions. This isnāt some fucking fluke, just an especially stark display of how far youāre willing to take your campism. The idea of the Afghan government, which constantly clashed with US interests, as an āoccupationā government is especially fucking absurd, but hey, whoever you need to play apologist for in the name of āanti-imperialismā (here, of course, meaning campism, not being against governments which are puppeted by foreign powers or which sell off the natural resources of the nation to imperialist countries with no input from the citizenry of Afghanistan).
This is no different than simping for North Korea under the position that South Korea is an Amerikkkan puppet. āSure North Korea is bad, but we need to kick out the foreigners, and THEN the People will Rise Up Against Oppression, like they have in the DPRK (they have risen up against oppression, right?)ā
Now that Uncle Sam is gone, Afghans have a real shot at getting rid of the Taliban and putting half-decent leadership in charge.
Thank you for affirming, with that edit, everything I saw implied by your previous statements.
So I reiterate - fuck your Taliban apologia, Mr. Obama.
Okay Iām about as interested in continuing this conversation as you are, given that youāre obviously more interesting in unilateral condemnation than understanding, but like you do realize weāre now living in the timeline where Obama didnāt leave Afghanistan right? I mean dude, the US-installed government fell within four months of the US withdrawal. Four months from start to end. The so-called Afghan government was a corrupt mess only propped up by NATO pumping billions of dollars in money, supplies and troops, and as soon as NATO left it started falling apart. Weāre talking ghost battalions, preposterous amounts of bribery, billions of dollars in embezzled money. No matter how much you hate the Taliban (which, yeah, we all do), the Islamic Republic simply never provided a credible alternative. I mean what the heck is this? In the immortal words of Joe Biden:
the Afghan troops have 300,000 well-equippedāas well-equipped as any army in the worldāand an air force against something like 75,000 Taliban.
And they fucking lost anyway. I mean I fucking hate that the group to succeed them had to be the Taliban, but when your government canāt survive three months without support from the most powerful country in the world, well that is a fucking problem. This is even worse than I thought; there was simply no way to keep that house of cards standing, and who was the only group capable of filling the void? Thatās right, the Taliban, no thanks to Uncle Sam. And now that you donāt have America giving the Taliban legitimacy with every bombing, drone strike or even their very existence, the people of Afghanistan are organically taking up arms against the Taliban. Wonder how that works.
PS: Not everyone who disagrees with you on topics youāre strongly opinionated about is the devil (or a Taliban apologist, but those are basically the same thing).
PSS: More seriously, you show a serious lack of understanding regarding the attitudes of indigenous peoples towards foreign invaders. A foreign enemy is enough to turn anyone into a hero and anyone (or anything) into a villain.
So I reiterate - fuck your Taliban apologia, Mr. Obama.
I mean I fucking hate that the group to succeed them had to be the Taliban, but when your government canāt survive three months without support from the most powerful country in the world, well that is a fucking problem.
Yes, it is a fucking problem that a government cannot survive without foreign support against a military with foreign support. That does not, however, equate to the idea that the military with foreign support winning is the only fucking way forward.
And now that you donāt have America giving the Taliban legitimacy with every bombing, drone strike or even their very existence, the people of Afghanistan are organically taking up arms against the Taliban. Wonder how that works.
And howās that gone? And which people are taking up arms?
Oh, whatās that? The same groups of people who defended the republic against the Taliban offensive?
Golly gee, itās almost like what happened isnāt some new development of a base of support or the energizing of a new, previously passive group to take up arms, but a continuation of the same fucking fight but with vastly reduced resources. Luckily, as we all know, continuing a fight with the same base of support but vastly reduced resources results in the Underdog Bonusā¢ coming into play, and definitely isnāt a delusion of accelerationist dipshittery that a worse position is a better one, actually.
PS: Not everyone who disagrees with you on topics youāre strongly opinionated about is the devil (or a Taliban apologist, but those are basically the same thing).
And what about people who say, explicitly, that the Taliban taking power is the only way to free Afghanistan of Imperialist Chainsā¢? You know, like you explicitly said?
āItās not apologia because I donāt like them, Iām just making apologies for why their rise to power was good and necessary!ā
No, thatās still apologia, sorry to burst your bubble. You can own up to it or you can lie to yourself, but donāt expect other people to play asspat games with someone who plays apologist for a regime busy banning little girls from learning how to read and mutilating the ones who get too uppity.
PSS: More seriously, you show a serious lack of understanding regarding the attitudes of indigenous peoples towards foreign invaders. A foreign enemy is enough to turn anyone into a hero and anyone (or anything) into a villain.
āIndigenous peoplesā jesus fucking Christ, this is exactly the kind of narrow pseudoacademic bullshit that gets passed around leftist circles as a universal truth that I was bitching about. Who are the indigenous peoples and who are the foreign invaders, here? Do you know anything about Afghan ethnic groups, or how they regard one another? Do you understand the base of recruitment of the Taliban?
If I showed you data regarding the opinions of Afghans before 2021 on the Taliban and the US, would you change your mind, or would you find a convenient excuse to continue licking the Talibanās boots as some expression of āanti-imperialistā sentiment (by being a representative of Pakistani imperialism, which is somehow immune to this notion youāre peddling)?
Apparently, what you really mean is āBad Camp is always the foreign invader, which means other foreign invaders are suddenly Expressions Of The Indigenous Willā
In what way did you want him to āendā the āWar on Terrorā, itself an immensely nebulous term for a broad range of foreign policy issues regarding non-state actors?
Perhaps nonintervention against ISIS? Or giving Afghanistan over to the Taliban ten years ahead of time? What form of āendingā the War on Terror are we looking at? What āgolden opportunityā did he have?
Obama was an insufficient solution to Americaās post-Bush problems. But the urge to counter the hagiography of some liberals about Obama with a broad-spectrum condemnation of the Obamaās administrationās policies is not really a reasonable response.
You replied to me in another comment asking how Obama was a step towards fascism, so consider this a response to that too.
Stop fighting and bombing people in the Middle East for the sake of American imperialist ambitions, undo authoritarian post-9/11 legislation (see: ICE), return American society and politics to normalcy and not contribute to the expansion of executive power.
Anti-ISIS intervention is more complicated, not the least because it started more than two full years after the death of Bin Laden, but Afghanistan? Absolutely, unequivocally yes. Afghanistan was never Americaās to āgive overā to anyone.
Again, the death of Bin Laden. There was absolutely no reason for the war in Afghanistan to turn into an anti-Taliban crusade; he absolutely could and should have said āour job here is doneā and left. Not doing so, alongside his expansion of the war on terror into new fronts, protected fascism in America from what shouldāve been a leftward swing following Bushās presidency.
Insufficient is an understatement. American fascism (what will go on to become MAGA) grew through two main vectors: war and economic uncertainty. Obama did basically nothing to address the former and only took halfhearted measures to address the latter. He did some good things, but in the face of what he paved the way for, his accomplishments are about as important as whatever Hindenburg was up to before appointing Hitler as chancellor.
Again, I asked for specifics, not generic descriptions which are passed around between people with a poor understanding of US foreign policy. What āfighting and bombing people in the Middle Eastā are we talking about, if not ISIS?
Youā¦ you do realize that the President doesnāt have the power to do that unilaterally, right?
The same American society and politics which was spiraling into chaos over having a dreaded Black man as president? Goodness me, why didnāt Obama just make society and politics normal again??
This is a legitimate criticism.
So with the government of Afghanistan specifically requesting that we not leave and let the country fall to foreign-funded fighters who wanted to impose a brutal authoritarian regime which was promising such delightful things as banning elections, womenās education, and speaking in public, that the US, morally, should have pulled out anyway against the will of Afghanistan because [checks notes] we are Bad Camp and Isolationism is the only route, even for ongoing issues.
As Ukraine is not ourās to āgive overā to anyone, should we cut aid to them as well? After all, it would be terrible if we were meddling in things that didnāt involve us again.
āTo turn intoā
Bruh, are you being serious?
Do you not remember the Afghanistan War at all?
So your argument is that America has no duty to assist countries after invading them; that after an invasion, the correct response is not to attempt to ensure stability by reinforcing a democratically elected government, but instead hand over all locals who helped or were indifferent to us to reactionary paramilitaries so they can be tortured to death and their families brutalized with them?
For that fucking matter, do you understand the power that the US President has with regards to wars? Executive power makes forcing a war relatively easy, but wars are approved and directed in great detail by legislation from Congress.
What new fronts were those, again?
Insufficiency in opposition is a far fucking cry from a step towards towards fascism.
Thatās a grotesque comparison without merit. If you want to make comparisons to Weimar Germany, Marx or Muller would be more correct.
I donāt give a damn about arguing Obamaās āgood thingsā, as those wouldnāt wash away the bad anyway; my point is that playing the mirror image of liberals who put on nostalgia glasses for Obama is not really a reasonable alternative. My argument is against incorrect condemnations of Obamaās policy on the grounds that the condemnations are incorrect, not that Obama deserves a C instead of an F on his report card, or that Obama did Really Great Work, Honest elsewhere.
To preface, Iām trying to make the argument that Obama continuing (and in some cases expanding) American operations in the Middle East contributed to fascism in America, not trying to pass moral judgement on him, so Iām going to keep my response to morality-based arguments short. Let me know if you want me a longer response to something.
Well aside from the obvious Afghanistan, you have Libya, Somalia and other places where America is/was conducting so-called counterterrorism operations. If Obama had stopped these conflicts, itād have been possible to make a decision on fighting ISIS (which America started doing way after the death of Bin Laden) with less war on terror baggage.
Half the things I mentioned arenāt strictly within the preview of the president. However, Obama was also the head of the majority party in Congress and came at the head of a hard leftward swing after Bush. He couldāve likely made significant progress on this front if he wanted. At the very least, he had a massive podium from which he couldāve pushed for de-Bushification.
I think itās obvious that this is not what I was talking about. Black man as president fever and war fever were separate phenomena, and while there was very little Obama couldāve done about the former short of ceasing to exist (and probably even then), there was a lot he couldāve done about the former, at least on the blue side of the political spectrum.
Making an exception here, though I probably shouldnāt.
The so-caled government of Afghanistan was better described as the American-installed occupation government, and hereās the thing: The people of Afghanistan were never going to accept an occupation government; as long as the American-installed government was fighting on behalf of and the Taliban were fighting against America, there was only one way this was going to end short of straight up American colonial rule. Itās not pretty, but what weāre seeing now is the start of the painful and sometimes bloody process of Afghans forging their own path forward, and within the context of that process the only thing American presence did was make the Taiban that much stronger by giving them very impressive and very real anti-imperial credentials. When the people of Afghanistan get rid of the Taliban, theyāll have done it in spite of, not because of, American interference. Hell, what America turned into its so-called democratic government was the North Afghanistan Alliance, an organic anti-Taliban resistance organization; now 25 years later that doesnāt exist and Taliban rule is unchallenged. Okay rant over, back on topic.
Nowhere does my argument imply that given that America isnāt at war with Russia, probably for the good of everyone involved.
See the bit on Afghanistan.
Nope. If it was an anti-Taliban crusade from the start, then that was a futile endeavor from the start and never shouldāve continued as long as it did and the point stands anyway.
Libya and Yemen?
He took the momentum against the factors that were building up fascism in the US (I focused on the war on terror here, but economic and cultural reasons were obviously just as important) and smothered it via his inaction. He was not just insufficient; in the areas that mattered, he did either nothing or basically nothing. My condemnation of his administration is based on the fact that he was fundamentally barking up the wrong tree while intentionally ignoring the right tree, effectively providing cover for the right from the left. He was a step towards fascism in the same away that throwing away your life jacket is a step towards sinking.
Itās admittedly a very loose comparison, but he was a political leader whose career (Iām predicting) becomes historically irrelevant due to his failure to stop fascism.
Libya was not part of the War on Terror and American involvement was minimal. I guess unless your position is that the UN can go fuck itself.
Somalia youāre looking at minimal involvement at the behest of the Somali government, the UN, AND the African Union, overwhelmingly not until 2015 and 2016. At some point, what youāre arguing for isnāt āRespect national sovereigntyā but āNational sovereignty does not grant the right to request help from Bad Campā
Would it? What arguments made here would suddenly disappear if Obama had reduced our involvement in Somalia but fought ISIS anyway? What arguments would even be weakened?
Thatās not a realistic assessment of US politics in 2009. Not even close. Fuckās sake, have you seen the Dem party today, wherein not only are the average ghouls more left-amiable than they used to be (damnation by faint praise, mind), but with the Blue Dogs almost entirely massacred and tossed out of the party? Youāre saying that Obama, who struggled to pass the landmark legislation he campaigned on, could easily have made āsignificant progressā on moving the country in some vague leftward direction when his own party was already balking at the very moderate proposals he was making away from right-wing shitheaddery? Not to mention the absolute opposition of the entirety of the GOP, which was unprecedented.
Jesus fucking Christ, what?
Oh, cool, so they havenāt accepted the Taliban, the occupation government of Pakistan, right?
Oh, āanti-imperialismā only counts against Bad Camp?
This utterly blinkered āanalysisā on the left is utter dogshit with no respect for the history of Afghanistan or its current society.
What the fuck.
No. Weāre fucking done here. I donāt play games with Taliban apologists.
What the fuck? Iām pretty sure I implied that the process of āforging their own path forwardā would imply getting rid of the Taliban, and that American interference was bad because it strengthened the Taliban. If thatās Taliban apologia, then Iām Barack Obama. To repeat, fuck the Taliban and fuck the war on terror for helping the Taliban consolidate power. This isnāt rocket science. Now that Uncle Sam is gone, Afghans have a real shot at getting rid of the Taliban and putting half-decent leadership in charge.
āThe Taliban had to win for the Afghan people to be truly free because of Anti-Imperialismā is campist dogshit of the same fucking variety as apologia for the theocracy of Iran, or, from another ideological standpoint, the āVanguard Stateā of the USSR and PRC. Unless what youāre arguing for is some variety of accelerationism, wherein the Taliban taking control of the major levers of power in the country will Invigorate The Heroic Resistanceā¢, in which case itās slightly less vile, considerably more idiotic, and no less campist in regarding the actual occupation government of the Taliban as preferable to the Dogs Of The Great Satan. It doesnāt fucking matter that you believe that in the long run the Taliban should be cast off if you think its appropriate in the āshort-termā of fucking decades of throwing acid on little girlsā faces for receiving an education and banning womenās voices from being heard in public by a totalitarian theocracy puppet state of a foreign intelligence agency without the slightest hint of democratic pretensions and an extensive history of extrajudicial murder in excess of the already-quite-violent situation in pre-2021 Afghanistan.
Would you like to fucking remind me what the position of the Taliban was like before āAmerican interferenceā.
Iāll give you a little fucking hint - not fucking pretty.
Would you like to remind me what the position of the Taliban is now?
The primary difference is that the NRF doesnāt have a figure like the Northern Alliance had in Ahmad Shah Massoud, a figure who could unite disparate personalities (and it is a matter in large part of personalities in coalition building in a country without a strong sense of nationhood (and if you say that Afghanistan does have a strong sense of nationhood, I will unfortunately not be surprised) or broader ideological unity) in resistance to the Taliban. And Ahmad Shah Massoud was assassinated before the American intervention in the country.
The whole fucking idea that the Taliban came into power because of āanti-imperialistā credentials is a fucking armchair leftist take with no understanding of the history or society of Afghanistan at present, nor, for that matter, of social movements in general or of the practical position of the Taliban itself. The Taliban remained deeply unpopular in most of Afghanistan, and are a continuing contributor to the deep and declining dissatisfaction in Afghanistan today.
The deeper issue is that this is all in-line with your previous positions. This isnāt some fucking fluke, just an especially stark display of how far youāre willing to take your campism. The idea of the Afghan government, which constantly clashed with US interests, as an āoccupationā government is especially fucking absurd, but hey, whoever you need to play apologist for in the name of āanti-imperialismā (here, of course, meaning campism, not being against governments which are puppeted by foreign powers or which sell off the natural resources of the nation to imperialist countries with no input from the citizenry of Afghanistan).
This is no different than simping for North Korea under the position that South Korea is an Amerikkkan puppet. āSure North Korea is bad, but we need to kick out the foreigners, and THEN the People will Rise Up Against Oppression, like they have in the DPRK (they have risen up against oppression, right?)ā
Thank you for affirming, with that edit, everything I saw implied by your previous statements.
So I reiterate - fuck your Taliban apologia, Mr. Obama.
Okay Iām about as interested in continuing this conversation as you are, given that youāre obviously more interesting in unilateral condemnation than understanding, but like you do realize weāre now living in the timeline where Obama didnāt leave Afghanistan right? I mean dude, the US-installed government fell within four months of the US withdrawal. Four months from start to end. The so-called Afghan government was a corrupt mess only propped up by NATO pumping billions of dollars in money, supplies and troops, and as soon as NATO left it started falling apart. Weāre talking ghost battalions, preposterous amounts of bribery, billions of dollars in embezzled money. No matter how much you hate the Taliban (which, yeah, we all do), the Islamic Republic simply never provided a credible alternative. I mean what the heck is this? In the immortal words of Joe Biden:
And they fucking lost anyway. I mean I fucking hate that the group to succeed them had to be the Taliban, but when your government canāt survive three months without support from the most powerful country in the world, well that is a fucking problem. This is even worse than I thought; there was simply no way to keep that house of cards standing, and who was the only group capable of filling the void? Thatās right, the Taliban, no thanks to Uncle Sam. And now that you donāt have America giving the Taliban legitimacy with every bombing, drone strike or even their very existence, the people of Afghanistan are organically taking up arms against the Taliban. Wonder how that works.
PS: Not everyone who disagrees with you on topics youāre strongly opinionated about is the devil (or a Taliban apologist, but those are basically the same thing).
PSS: More seriously, you show a serious lack of understanding regarding the attitudes of indigenous peoples towards foreign invaders. A foreign enemy is enough to turn anyone into a hero and anyone (or anything) into a villain.
Welp, guess I gotta go war criminā.
Yes, it is a fucking problem that a government cannot survive without foreign support against a military with foreign support. That does not, however, equate to the idea that the military with foreign support winning is the only fucking way forward.
And howās that gone? And which people are taking up arms?
Oh, whatās that? The same groups of people who defended the republic against the Taliban offensive?
Golly gee, itās almost like what happened isnāt some new development of a base of support or the energizing of a new, previously passive group to take up arms, but a continuation of the same fucking fight but with vastly reduced resources. Luckily, as we all know, continuing a fight with the same base of support but vastly reduced resources results in the Underdog Bonusā¢ coming into play, and definitely isnāt a delusion of accelerationist dipshittery that a worse position is a better one, actually.
And what about people who say, explicitly, that the Taliban taking power is the only way to free Afghanistan of Imperialist Chainsā¢? You know, like you explicitly said?
āItās not apologia because I donāt like them, Iām just making apologies for why their rise to power was good and necessary!ā
No, thatās still apologia, sorry to burst your bubble. You can own up to it or you can lie to yourself, but donāt expect other people to play asspat games with someone who plays apologist for a regime busy banning little girls from learning how to read and mutilating the ones who get too uppity.
āIndigenous peoplesā jesus fucking Christ, this is exactly the kind of narrow pseudoacademic bullshit that gets passed around leftist circles as a universal truth that I was bitching about. Who are the indigenous peoples and who are the foreign invaders, here? Do you know anything about Afghan ethnic groups, or how they regard one another? Do you understand the base of recruitment of the Taliban?
If I showed you data regarding the opinions of Afghans before 2021 on the Taliban and the US, would you change your mind, or would you find a convenient excuse to continue licking the Talibanās boots as some expression of āanti-imperialistā sentiment (by being a representative of Pakistani imperialism, which is somehow immune to this notion youāre peddling)?
Apparently, what you really mean is āBad Camp is always the foreign invader, which means other foreign invaders are suddenly Expressions Of The Indigenous Willā