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Wtf. I’ve never seen so many people annoyed that their fellows are protesting genocide. How do you take a situation like this and make it a fucking trolley meme.
I don’t think people are saying you shouldn’t protest the genocide. You should! But it’s stupid to not vote for Harris over it because letting Trump win doesn’t just throw women, LGBTQ people, etc. under the bus, it also makes the genocide of Palestinians even worse.
What I have seen with my eyes in the last 12 months is so horrifying that I cannot imagine how it could be worse.
Unfortunately I think Bibi has a better imagination than you
He’s been doing unlimited slaughter on gaza for 12 months it couldn’t possibly get worse than that theyre not gonna nuke Palestine the fallout would hit all of israel
But it’s stupid to not vote for Harris
It’s stupid to vote for someone supporting a genocide
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Yes. Luckily life isn’t a meme and you are offered infinite possibilities so you can fight off trump without having to support criminals.
The government is spending billions in propaganda, half the people here are brainwashed and sockpuppets of their government
The Kremlin is spending even more, making people sockpuppets of them.
Edit: here they come!
Not true actually, the country that spend more money in war and in propaganda is USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
Russia cyberwar capabilities look weak compared to what the US has
The Biden/Harris admin is literally doing genocide to appease a foreign lobbying group (AIPAC)
Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
Just pull the lever and vote blue!
If only we could do more than one thing at once. Like pull the lever for blue because it is incredibly easy but also work on the task of getting rid of the trolley.
Do the easy thing first, leave the hard thing for tomorrow (never).
The hard thing gets even harder if we don’t do the easy thing.
If you believe mindlessly endorsing genocide is the easy thing, we have little in common.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
If you don’t believe that strategic voting is critical to achieving what are inherently long term goals, then we have little in common.
we have little in common
Yes, I did say that.
Democrats nominating a war monger was a sign of high minded strategy?
- her position wrt Israel and Palestine wasn’t clear when she was nominated (though I don’t think it was all that hard to anticipate, but here we are); (2) the upcoming vote isn’t for her nomination to the democratic ticket, is it?
No one is saying they don’t wish the practical reality in which we live was better, but we are looking at two realistic choices right now. One choice will not only greatly worsen the situation and almost undoubtedly lead to more suffering and death in the Levant, it is also quite literally the highly preferred choice by Netanyahu. The other has in the past, before soliciting as many US votes as possible, at least displayed a willingness to criticize the Israeli government and modulate US policies regarding it. So I dunno what to tell you. At the end of the day, I’m pro-Palestinians not being murdered, and could give a fuck about signaling on social media, so I make practical choices to facilitate my as-many-Palestinians-as-possible-not-being-murdered preference. Maybe you don’t have that in common with me.
Congrats, you’ve intentionally missed the point. Thanks for trying though.
Not everyone has the capacity to engage with hard questions.
Not that you tried anyway.
Not that you tried anyway.
Bullshit.
It sounds like you believe most people who identify as Democrats are actively rooting for the horrifyingly high number of Palestinian deaths, in the tens of thousands, to progress to the millions. Is that an accurate description of your viewpoint? If so, are there some key things that made you start believing that?
Just for criticizing Harris, her supporters have called for me to be put in a concentration camp. What makes you believe Democrats have no capacity for fascism?
I believe all humans, Democrats included, have capacity for fascism.
Do you believe most Democrats are actively rooting for most of the millions of Palestinians to be killed?
Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
This is really the crux of every one of these arguments about Gaza-related voting decisions though.
The people saying vote Harris please because (see OP) are saying that because they consider the trolley as an unstoppable force. There is no spectrum of feasible action that involves stopping the trolley before it takes one of those two paths. There may be feasible action that involves getting rid of the trolley later, but not now.
The people saying ZOMG you are voting for genocide if you vote for Harris seem to be focused on the trolley and can’t believe we’re all worrying about lesser evils when the orphan crushing trolley is right fucking there.
I am not a member of this second group, but it seems to me that they think getting rid of the trolley before it takes one of those paths is possible. Or, they think destroying the trolley later necessarily involves sacrificing ALL those groups (on both tracks above) now.
Your framework believes all non-Palestinian-genocide issues would be fixed by pulling a lever.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
Does it? Is “fixed” the only bar that matters, or is “better” not still valuable? What about simply “not actively getting worse”? Is there no value in taking the smallest of steps to keep things from getting actively worse, or even attempting to stop them from getting worse? Does that prevent you from taking bigger steps to work for a better world? Do you think unions, mass protests, and other means of systemic change will magically be easier under Hitler 2.0 than a Dem?
You’ve asked this other question like 4 times in this thread so far, you must really think it’s a gotcha.
Let’s imagine for a second that Harris and Trump are indistinguishable on the question of Gaza (they aren’t, but let’s pretend your fantasy reality exists for a moment). That would mean that any choice results in the same outcome. That makes that question a wash. Choosing to vote for Harris, Trump, or not vote all have the same outcome on that front. But what about the other issues that matter to people? Should we let abortion access get more difficult in the meantime? Should we let the party that doesn’t believe there are any issues with policing into power over the one that admits there’s an issue but hasn’t fixed it yet?
Your question is incredibly dumb, not only because you seem to think that something happening while X party is in power means that X party is responsible (someone never took a civics class and learned about SC appointments or the filibuster) but because it’s entirely possible for a party to be good on one issue and bad on another. The Dem establishment is wrong about Gaza, what the hell does that have to do with abortion? Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I don’t want to blame you for a difference in physical abilities that may exist, but are you looking at the same meme as me?
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
What about simply “not actively getting worse”?
Who says it’s not getting worse? A fellow Harris supporter celebrating “history” in Kalamazoo, where the gap between black and white homeownership is at its worst level in 50 years?:
https://lemmy.world/post/21294216
Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
It’s not a false equivalence, there is no equivalence argued for in the meme. It points out that genocide in Gaza will happen on either track, but only one of them will actively make things worse for other groups I care about also. It’s not calling them equivalent, in fact it’s arguing they are not equivalent which is why we have a moral obligation to keep It off the track with more people on it. At best, the outcome for Gaza is equivalent, but the outcome for others is not.
Who says it’s not getting worse?
Are you delusional enough to think that Trump and Harris will have identical outcomes for the other groups listed? Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better than a national abortion ban or anything else Trump (or really, the Heritage Foundation) wants.
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
Ah yes, because Harris isn’t as anti genocide as we want, it’s totally logical to assume she would be in favor of black people dying more at the hands of police. Yes, that totally follows. And definitely the best option to improve policing is to let Trump be in charge. He will totally not work to make things worse.
You believe Harris has somehow preserved abortion rights and that others are delusional?
Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better
A person who made their career out of imprisoning mostly black and brown men should be somehow seen as strongly against “black people dying more at the hands of police”?
I love that you cut off the quote mid sentence, conveniently leaving out the part that would have answered your dumbass question. No improvement to abortion access is objectively better than working to make things worse. If those are the only two options, we all have a moral obligation to keep things from getting worse.
You’re the one who implied it was the Dems fault because it happened while they were in power. Harris isn’t president and so couldn’t have done anything either way for abortion. But she certainly hasn’t made them worse and is not in favor of making abortion access more difficult. Trump, on the other hand, will actively work to make them worse.
I’m sorry, what is Harris’ stated position in BLM vs Trump’s? Which one of them said “please don’t be too nice” to them while talking to cops about suspects? Which one of them sent DHS to black-bag protestors during BLM again?
If you squeeze your eyes shut tight enough, the trolley will just disappear
No need to squeeze your eyes to watch Palestinians just disappear right?
And your solution is… to let the trolley roll over them anyway while feeling morally superior. Unless you have some plan of removing the trolley before January, you are choosing to let it crush them anyway. Choosing to not vote or pull the lever is also a choice that you will have to live with and one that requires moral justification.
Not everyone is capable of comprehending a nuanced and complex solution.
You offer no evidence of any capacity to question the contrivance of a despicable “problem.”
“I don’t have any moral responsibility because I believe the trolley shouldn’t exist in the first place.” Totally nuanced and not completely missing the point of the analogy at all. If only everyone knew we could just magically make the trolley disappear we could have skipped over the decades of philosophy written about the trolley problem because the solution is so easy!
I mean you said those words, no need to beat yourself up cause you have a little straw on your face.
That’s what it sounds like you are saying. If that’s not it, why didn’t you tell your solution?
What are you, 5? “I know you are but what am I?”
It is questioned, the trolley is that first past the post system you hear people complain about.
But at the same time you don’t just let the trolley do the maximum amount of crushing before it can be shut down for good.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency)
By the supreme court not the president.
The 3 Dissenting votes were exclusively from Democrat appointed judges from the Clinton and Obama years.
BLM?
Republicans are just objectively more hostile to BLM than Democrats.
Why does this meme depict the saving of abortion rights by voting for Harris (again)?
What “objective” measure implies Democrats are less hostile to BLM?
Black Americans somehow live with equality, let alone dignity, in Democrat-run cities?
Blacks should see a widespread endorsement of genocide and conclude BLM is legitimate concern for establishment Democrats?
Why does this meme depict the saving of abortion rights by voting for Harris (again)?
Because the more Democratic presidental terms there are the more nominees can reach the supreme court to overturn. Roe was overturned precisely because Republicans played that game of getting more judges on the bench
Additionally more dems in power increases the chance of a legislative victory on the issue
What “objective” measure implies Democrats are less hostile to BLM?
Listen to any Republican ever talk about BLM or make policy against “critical race theory” or “woke”.
Black Americans somehow live with equality, let alone dignity, in Democrat-run cities?
Blacks should see a widespread endorsement of genocide and conclude BLM is legitimate concern for establishment Democrats?
Why ignore this?
That isn’t me ignoring your point.
One of the parties declared open hostilities towards blm/crt/“woke” including via legislation. All of which they use to denounce black rights or history in some way.
On that measure Democrats are less hostile and it’s an important one. You need to teach about the oppression to do anything about it
I mean…yeah…but also fuck the democrats. We shouldn’t be stuck in this position of genocide and fascism there and here or “just” genocide and fascism there. There are certainly degrees of being a piece of shit, but at this point, we are splitting hairs.
“splitting hairs” could mean the difference between up to a couple million people dying, and potentially tens of millions of people or more dying. That’s not splitting hairs at that point. That’s not “po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe” anymore. Anyone arguing otherwise is either brainwashed or is arguing in bad faith.
Imagine thinking that there’s no difference between one genocide and several, simultaneous genocides.
Bad faith? It is bad faith to find any genocide “acceptable,” while simultaneously becoming angry at anyone pointing out that genocide is unacceptable. Seriously, what the actual fuck? This is white liberalism in its most concentrated lethal form. Ironically, it’ll eventually lead to the genocides you don’t find acceptable. If it wasn’t for this shit mentality, we wouldn’t be here.
Damn, you’ve been showing off a lot of privilege, my dude. I don’t usually like invoking that concept, but you’re dripping all over the floor. Maybe it’s time for you to stop and think about the fact that it easy to paint everyone with a broad brush and say, “it’s okay if the body count goes up by a few million, I’ll just wait until a better candidate comes along” when you’re not the one on the firing line.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who may get bounced from country to country as you try to seek refuge from a genocidal dictator.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who’s going to have to rip their entire life apart just to survive.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who’s family is going to be split up as a result.
Like, feel free to criticize the Democrats as much as you want, I hate them too. But I don’t have the privilege to just sit around and wait for Mr(s) Perfect to arrive. I may have a matter of months, if not weeks before I have to flee the country.
So fuck you and your “both sides” bullshit. It takes some serious privilege, or at the very least, the mindset of a bucket of crabs to say something like that.
I’m trans and so fucking sick of people here using my existence as an excuse to support/ignore genocide. My rights are not more important than those of Palestinians and anyone saying that they support me while killing brown muslim people abroad will not get my support. The interesting part is that Harris won’t even plainly say she supports trans peoples rights, she has to dance around it and say it in the most vague meaningless terms. You know that trans people are the next in line to be thrown in front of the bus by the dems.
I’m trans. I live in Texas. What do you want me to say?
Nothing, just don’t assume that everyone refusing to vote for a genocide supporter is privileged and don’t speak for me.
Immigrants used to be on top rail, but after four years, they have been placed on both rails, just like the Palestinians. There is no guarantee that the groups placed on the top rail will not be shifted to the bottom rail as well in four years.
Voting for Democrats is always advertised as the lesser of two evils, but it sure seems like the lesser evil is just trying to kill the same groups the greater evil. If they want people to vote for them, the Democrats should start working to save and prevent people from being tied to trolley tracks.
Or at least lie about it.
Plus we have Democrat-run cities implementing AI to spot homeless people, so add that to both rails as well
Didn’t Kamala already refuse to protect Trans rights? The Dems will put everyone on the tracks if it gets them votes/donations
Derail the train don’t accept a false choice not to mention democrats also are terrible on policing and immigration for example so more should also be on the democrats track.
Either the Dem or Rep nominee will become president. It’s going to happen. There’s no “derailing the train”.
You can doubt me now. You’ll see soon enough.
Either the Dem or Rep nominee will become president. It’s going to happen. There’s no “derailing the train”.
The red and blue party didn’t create the world. All it takes to derail a train is one person.
The name of the person? Albert Einstein!
One day, you will be the only one on both rails, while people watch and say they have no choice but to let you die, pretending there isn’t an third empty rail.
Pretending? Do you not know that the electoral college effectively bans third parties from getting any electoral votes?
Even if they’re not on all ballots, they are still in enough states for them to get a win.
They have no elecotral voters
So the US isn’t a democracy by any stretch
Why are you defending this system?
I’m hoping once Harris takes office that she can improve the Isreal/Palestine situation. But I suspect for now she has to keep her cards close or she’ll lose some key support.
Politics has been an old-boys club for a long time. She probably has to tread carefully until she knows if she has a majority or not.
They are already in office, they are the vice president of the united states, the second highest charge in the country
That was the single most stupid take I have read today.
Bravo.
Aren’t they the vice president of the united states?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President_of_the_United_States
Presides over the Senate, but can’t even vote in it. Unless there’s a tie. And she’s an advisor to the president. Literally less actual power than a random senator.
And then you get offended when people call you russian bots. You’re either knowingly or unknowingly spreading misinformation. In the end, the result is the same.
“The vice president of the United States (VPOTUS) is the second-highest office in the executive branch of the U.S. federal government, after the president of the United States, and ranks first in the presidential line of succession.”
Second highest office
- In reality the tram has already been running in on a tram track were it has already run over more than 180.000 Palestinians (as estimated in Lancet article some months ago) as well as thousands of Lebanese.
- There have been hundreds of branches all allowing the tram to switch to a line free of victims and at each time Biden and Harris - the ones who have actually had the power all this time - pulled the lever to keep the tram on the line were it ran over more Palestinians and recently also Lebanese.
As usual with these propaganda “memes” the situation is misportrayed as one were the power is in the hands of common Americans, when the power has always been in the hands of the likes of Biden and Harris and who have repeatedly chosen to give more weapons to the Nazis, whilst knowing that it increases the risk of a Trump victory.
Even the kind of human being that only cares about “what’s in it for me” and “is relaxed about the mass murder of babies” should be able to see that the Trump defeat they desire could have been guarantee almost a year ago by Biden simply stopping the sending of weapons and ammo to Israel.
The choice cannot be so single issue. Donald Trump is doing everything he can to subvert the election process, and will try to upend it entirely if he can. Harris is a disappointing choice at best, downright revolting at worst, but she respects the election process. Under Harris, I have a chance to continue voting third party in local elections and trying to change the system. Under Trump, not only is my life and the life of many other Americans in danger, but this may very well be the last time I ever get to vote.
The choice cannot be so black and white. The Democrats have always been neo-libs that are okay with bombing third world countries for imperialist reasons. However, in this election, they’re the ones we have the best chance of voting again under and continuing to try to change the system. I will not be so short sighted as to believe the average American is going to do anything but vote Biden or Harris, so making an ideological stand is doing nothing but wasting my opportunity to stop total fascism from removing the ability to make this country better in the future.
Even if I believed Trump and Harris would be identical on the issue of Gaza, when I strongly believe Trump will accelerate the genocide, I still have to vote Harris in order to retain the ability to vote in the future and secure the current (distasteful) state of our democracy so it can be improved in the future.
still have to vote Harris in order to retain the ability to vote in the future and secure the current (distasteful) state of our democracy so it can be improved in the future.
My honest feeling, and this is just speculation, but it seemed like it was easier to organize large protest movements under trump than under Biden. Once Biden got into office all the liberals stopped supporting protest and started defending the status quo.
anybody on the left withholding their vote at this point fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options, so this type of post doesn’t persuade anybody
Anyone who doesn’t “believe” that we have the system we have is beyond reaching
Yeah I don’t “believe” our system best serves the common good. But I sure as hell will vote for Kamala because it’s very clear that is my best course of action to serve the common good. Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice, it will help Trump get into power, where only a single party has a voice, and any other voice will be silenced
Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice…
Yes it will. If a 3rd party gets 5% of the national vote they qualify for federal election funding which would make them more viable next time around.
Man it’s getting downright gross how liberals are just so blasé about their acceptance of Palestinians being murdered.
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Stop trying to condescend to me. Just because the Palestine policy is mere shades different between the two parties doesn’t make it any more acceptable. Both parties voted to cut UNRWA aid. Trump cut all aid to Palestinians, Biden resumed it then stopped it again. Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and recognized the illegal settlements. Biden never undid that. Trump closed the Palestinian embassy in Washington and Biden kept it closed.
What kind of nonsense is this? Republicans used to argue that since Bush was not as bad as Saddam he could get away with killing Iraqis too. It was a stupid argument and it’s also stupid now. Palestinians aren’t judging us by our speeches or Biden’s intentions, they’re judging us by our violent actions.
If Harris wanted us to vote for her, she could at least try to reach out to us. Harris says Black Lives Matter, she says Trans lives matter, she says Israeli lives matter, she won’t say that Arab lives matter equal to Israeli ones. Why shouldn’t I vote for Stein, who DOES say this? Harris pandered to everyone on that list except Arab Americans and Muslim Americans. Her campaign didn’t even allow a single Palestinian to endorse her at DNC. Biden detoured his campaign stops so he could avoid Arab-American voters, has Harris done any different? You’re asking me to vote for you even though your administration caused suffering of Palestinians I know in Palestine, and you won’t promise anything different?
Edit: ah yes, downvote me all you want but I’ve been speaking to voters in swing states and you’re only lying to yourself if you can’t address this concern for them and expect them to magically come to your side. Killing the messenger won’t solve anything. Harris can’t even bring herself to say the most basic talking points in support of Palestinian rights. Just say you plan to make a committee to look into how to build a future Palestinian state or that looking back it was wrong for Biden to deny the Palestinian death count, and that would address a lot of concerns, but it’s like she’s intentionally making it harder for Arabs and Muslims to vote for her.
This is in an unbelievable reduction of the reality, but sure. I’d also love a citation on how Trump will be worse for Palestine. Unless you’re going to suggest something utterly outrageous like he’s going to nuke the whole planet or something, the situation is already a horrific genocide. Harris and Biden are already funding and arming the genociders. Trump has said this is also what he plans to do. His main argument against Harris vis a vis Palestinian genocide is that he’s better friends with Netanyahu.
Yes, according to the meme both sides are murderers. Directly supporting criminals by endorsing them or voting them makes you complicit in their crime.
Bruh you literally argued the opposite in your recent comments about Turkey and India.
It’s always different when you do it yourself…
See abortions and ultra conservative Christians.
There are many idiots here acting in bad faith. When someone claim something before jumping to conclusion you probably want to double check
“So am i allowed to insult all Turks in general because their president is a fascist?”
This is the only post about “turkey” i made recently.
How are the two thing supposed to be related? If you knowingly support and vote a criminal you are complicit in the crime. If you happen to be born in a country ruled by a criminal and someone assume you are bad because of your nationality that’s equal to racism.
Hey, what do you think about the Tianmen square incident? And what do you think about the Uyghur situation?
How are these things related to anything that is being said in this thread? Chinese government is a rigged authoritarian regime as much corrupted as the american or russian government. China, America and Russia are all each fueling a genocide at the current time. I believe genocides are a crime against humanity and anyone involved in one should be convicted. You hate china so much that you brought it up randomly in this thread, i have a question for you too: are you aware that most items are produced in china and make it to your country just fine because pretty much every government in the world is in billionares business partnerships with them?
The guy at the lever actually has the power to stop the trolley entirely.
How do you figure that could be done?
Are you fucking serious?
Yes
You can’t imagine any way that the the POTUS, an office with essentially unbridled military power at its disposal, could intervene to stop an ongoing genocide?
The person with the lever is supposed to be the voter. Not the potus.
Just because you want to interpret this meme in that way doesn’t mean I have to.
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I reject and condemn any system that says I can only choose between two genocidal monsters. There is no redeeming value to be had.
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There is no “harm reduction”. I do reject the parts and people of the world that revel in or even accept the wholesale slaughter of children. Bargaining with their lives is moral bankruptcy, and signifies a total lack of value. Let me ask you a question: can you imagine anything that would cause you to not vote for the democrats? If full throated support for genocide isn’t a bridge too far, I have to wonder if you have any absolute principles at all.
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It’s not that I don’t believe in harm reduction as a concept, I just think it is cynically misapplied to genocide. There is no reducing the harm of genocide. There is zero reason to think that the democrats won’t see it through to its conclusion.
