I understand the mechanics of it. I’m not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality. I am still repulsed by the attraction to anthropomorphic animals just as much as I am to the attraction to real animals - especially the furry art featuring non-human genitals. It’s gross, it’s weird, and it’s a perversion of childhood themes that I would prefer not to be so public.
I’m not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality
You literally said in a comment further down:
I don’t find porn in general disgusting. I find furry porn disgusting because it borders on bestiality.
It’s perfectly valid for you to have the feelings of “It’s gross, it’s weird, and a perversion of my childhood themes. I don’t like it, and I don’t want to see it” because honestly; Same.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the “real” LGBTQ individuals.
It becomes especially problematic when you start equivocating it to things that are actually harmful like beastiality and is no different than the “all gays are pedophiles” trope.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the “real” LGBTQ individuals.
yet I can totally see why LGBTQ people would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the fursona types. life’s hard enough explaining the intricacies of human sexuality without tossing in cartoon hypotheticals.
I can totally see why women would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the gender non-conforming. life’s hard enough explaining the intricacies of womanhood without tossing in crossdressing hypotheticals.
Not calling you a TERF, but you do see the logical fallacy you’re sprinting straight into, right?
I’m using something we can, hopefully, both agree you’re not and is problematic to demonstrate the fallicious logic. What would be a better way to communicate that?
How about you go fuck yourself, furry style, and get blocked, dickhead. I’ll be damned if some random asshole is going to call me a terf because I don’t think fursuited = queer.
Again. I’m not conflating the two. You quote me on explaining why I personally find it disgusting. Then you tell me it’s okay for me to have that feeling. Great. We’re on the same page.
The problem isn’t conflating anthropomorphic animal porn with animal porn, it’s conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Edit: I will also add that I’m not arguing we do anything to furries. If you look for my calls to action, I’m clearly just arguing that people need to admit it’s a fetish community. I’m not saying we need to shove furries in the closet or make it illegal to be a furry. However, even if I did say that it would be difficult to argue it’s the same as violating LGBT rights because sex and gender are central to a person’s identity while being a furry is not.
sex and gender are central to a person’s identity while being a furry is not.
Sex and gender are clearly central to your identity, just as much as ‘furry’ is central, sometimes exclusively, to other people’s identity.
it’s conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Who are you to define what is or isn’t a legitimate sexual or gender identity? Identity is a personal and subjective thing. For many ‘furry’ is a gender and/or sexual identity and to say that it isn’t is no different than arguing with a trans person about theirs.
The issue isn’t that you are explicitly making some call to action, it’s that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not ‘just part of the fetish community’?
I’m not the one to define these terms. At best, furry is a case of gender expression, not gender identity. These are not the same concept, and I would argue that furry is not even gender expression since there isn’t an underlying gender identity for it to express, though I am not an expert here.
The issue isn’t that you are explicitly making some call to action, it’s that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
That’s not what I’m doing. Let me be clear about my central claim - the furry community is a fetish community. While I have given my personal feelings on the matter, my arguments have all been in service of this claim. Even if I were attempting to other furries, I wouldn’t feel that bad on the basis that I don’t believe it’s a sexual orientation, sexual identity, or gender identity, rather I believe it’s a fetish. However, that’s not what I’m intending to do, though I admit that sharing my personal feelings on the matter may have come across that way.
If I did kink shame anybody, or otherwise make furries feel like inferior people, I want to apologize here. I don’t have an issue with furries. I hope they can continue to enjoy their fetish. I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not ‘just part of the fetish community’?
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that’s brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
To give my answer, it’s because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not defined by their pornographic material, sex toys, roleplay scenarios, or a shared hobby in the way that furry sexuality is.
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that’s brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
When those don’t align that’s usually referred to as dysphoria/dysmorphia. That’s what the fursuits are for, just like HRT, tattoos, piercings, clothing, etc.
I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
What it is, or what you perceive it to be? I don’t disagree that fetish is a part of it, but that’s true of any gender/sexuality etc. It’s like flattening down all homosexuality to leather daddies.
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for “straight” and “gay”. Would adding a “furry” site really feel all that strange or out of place?
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don’t think that’s as strongly correlated as you’re suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I’m unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for “straight” and “gay”. Would adding a “furry” site really feel all that strange or out of place?
Porn categories do not define sexual orientations, so I do not understand your point. Sexual orientation is a description of the sexual characteristics of yourself and the people you are attracted too, neither of which are decided by whether or not either of you are furries.
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don’t think that’s as strongly correlated as you’re suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I’m unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
I’m not claiming all furries do all those things. I’m saying that all of the characteristics that make someone furry sexual are covered by the categories I listed. None of the categories I listed are relevant to whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual.
Also, the hobby that many furries share (I never said all) is fur suiting.
lesbian: ___ which is actually just a category and not a set of separate content___ oof___ pornhub.com/video?c=27
Sexual orientation is a description of the sexual characteristics
You are conflating sex and gender which are distinct things.
None of the categories I listed are relevant to whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual
Other than, arguably, pornography they don’t seem to be overly relevant to furry either.
Also, the hobby that many furries share (I never said all) is fur suiting.
Apologies, I did misspeak with “all”, however that’s like saying trans people all share the hobby of crossdressing and it’s just fetish wear. Fursuits serve the same function as gendered clothing or HRT for many individuals.
My overall point is that you should speak with more furries, there’s more going on there than you choose to acknowledge. Reducing it all to “fetish” is harmful and does harm the overall LGBTQ+ community.
Questioning and invalidating another’s gender or sexuality identity sets the precedent and framework for yours to be questioned and invalidated in turn.
lesbian: ___ which is actually just a category and not a set of separate content___ oof___ pornhub.com/video?c=27
This is incoherent to me.
You are conflating sex and gender which are distinct things.
How so? Also it would help if you didn’t cut off the quote mid phrase.
Other than, arguably, pornography they don’t seem to be overly relevant to furry either.
I’m giving a family resemblance definition of furry sexual. I’m not making any deep claims about the activities of any particular furries.
Apologies, I did misspeak with “all”, however that’s like saying trans people all share the hobby of crossdressing and it’s just fetish wear. Fursuits serve the same function as gendered clothing or HRT for many individuals.
You’re presupposing the conclusion you want to draw. I don’t believe furry is a gender so you’re not going to convince me that wearing a fur suit is gender affirming care.
My overall point is that you should speak with more furries, there’s more going on there than you choose to acknowledge. Reducing it all to “fetish” is harmful and does harm the overall LGBTQ+ community.
I’m not reducing the entire furry fandom to fetish. I’m claiming that it’s a fetish community. Does it have more depth than that? Yes, but that doesn’t change the nature of the fandom. You could make the same claim about adult babies. They do more than just wear diapers. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s inherently a fetish community.
Questioning and invalidating another’s gender or sexuality identity sets the precedent and framework for yours to be questioned and invalidated in turn.
I’m not questioning anyone’s gender or sexuality, so I’m not worried about that happening.
This has been a long conversation. It’s been getting less focused and more repetitive, so I’m going to call it here. I hope you have a good day.
We see homosexuality in the wild. Sexual coercion in animals isn’t cute or cuddly. Usually non consensual and violent to the point of fatality. This is not the premise you want to pursue unless you’re embracing the beastiality premise of fursonas which I’ve been repeatedly assured is not their thing.
I understand the mechanics of it. I’m not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality. I am still repulsed by the attraction to anthropomorphic animals just as much as I am to the attraction to real animals - especially the furry art featuring non-human genitals. It’s gross, it’s weird, and it’s a perversion of childhood themes that I would prefer not to be so public.
You literally said in a comment further down:
It’s perfectly valid for you to have the feelings of “It’s gross, it’s weird, and a perversion of my childhood themes. I don’t like it, and I don’t want to see it” because honestly; Same.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the “real” LGBTQ individuals.
It becomes especially problematic when you start equivocating it to things that are actually harmful like beastiality and is no different than the “all gays are pedophiles” trope.
yet I can totally see why LGBTQ people would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the fursona types. life’s hard enough explaining the intricacies of human sexuality without tossing in cartoon hypotheticals.
Yup
As the TERFs say:
Not calling you a TERF, but you do see the logical fallacy you’re sprinting straight into, right?
Cute straw man. Either I’m a terf or I agree with your premise. Neither, thanks.
I’m using something we can, hopefully, both agree you’re not and is problematic to demonstrate the fallicious logic. What would be a better way to communicate that?
How about you go fuck yourself, furry style, and get blocked, dickhead. I’ll be damned if some random asshole is going to call me a terf because I don’t think fursuited = queer.
I’ll give you props for proudly wearing your intolerance on your sleeve like that.
Again. I’m not conflating the two. You quote me on explaining why I personally find it disgusting. Then you tell me it’s okay for me to have that feeling. Great. We’re on the same page.
The problem isn’t conflating anthropomorphic animal porn with animal porn, it’s conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Edit: I will also add that I’m not arguing we do anything to furries. If you look for my calls to action, I’m clearly just arguing that people need to admit it’s a fetish community. I’m not saying we need to shove furries in the closet or make it illegal to be a furry. However, even if I did say that it would be difficult to argue it’s the same as violating LGBT rights because sex and gender are central to a person’s identity while being a furry is not.
accidentally responded to myself instead of editing my previous comment
Sex and gender are clearly central to your identity, just as much as ‘furry’ is central, sometimes exclusively, to other people’s identity.
Who are you to define what is or isn’t a legitimate sexual or gender identity? Identity is a personal and subjective thing. For many ‘furry’ is a gender and/or sexual identity and to say that it isn’t is no different than arguing with a trans person about theirs.
The issue isn’t that you are explicitly making some call to action, it’s that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not ‘just part of the fetish community’?
I’m not the one to define these terms. At best, furry is a case of gender expression, not gender identity. These are not the same concept, and I would argue that furry is not even gender expression since there isn’t an underlying gender identity for it to express, though I am not an expert here.
That’s not what I’m doing. Let me be clear about my central claim - the furry community is a fetish community. While I have given my personal feelings on the matter, my arguments have all been in service of this claim. Even if I were attempting to other furries, I wouldn’t feel that bad on the basis that I don’t believe it’s a sexual orientation, sexual identity, or gender identity, rather I believe it’s a fetish. However, that’s not what I’m intending to do, though I admit that sharing my personal feelings on the matter may have come across that way.
If I did kink shame anybody, or otherwise make furries feel like inferior people, I want to apologize here. I don’t have an issue with furries. I hope they can continue to enjoy their fetish. I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that’s brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
To give my answer, it’s because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not defined by their pornographic material, sex toys, roleplay scenarios, or a shared hobby in the way that furry sexuality is.
appreciate the nuance in this reply.
When those don’t align that’s usually referred to as dysphoria/dysmorphia. That’s what the fursuits are for, just like HRT, tattoos, piercings, clothing, etc.
What it is, or what you perceive it to be? I don’t disagree that fetish is a part of it, but that’s true of any gender/sexuality etc. It’s like flattening down all homosexuality to leather daddies.
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for “straight” and “gay”. Would adding a “furry” site really feel all that strange or out of place?
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don’t think that’s as strongly correlated as you’re suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I’m unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
I think this vastly disregards the lifelong impacts of gender dysmorphia and is frankly kind of flippant.
How does acknowledging someone else pain minimalist that of another’s?
Transfolk can’t take their identity off when it’s convenient for them.
Porn categories do not define sexual orientations, so I do not understand your point. Sexual orientation is a description of the sexual characteristics of yourself and the people you are attracted too, neither of which are decided by whether or not either of you are furries.
I’m not claiming all furries do all those things. I’m saying that all of the characteristics that make someone furry sexual are covered by the categories I listed. None of the categories I listed are relevant to whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual.
Also, the hobby that many furries share (I never said all) is fur suiting.
Not categories, entirely different sets of content for:
You are conflating sex and gender which are distinct things.
Other than, arguably, pornography they don’t seem to be overly relevant to furry either.
Apologies, I did misspeak with “all”, however that’s like saying trans people all share the hobby of crossdressing and it’s just fetish wear. Fursuits serve the same function as gendered clothing or HRT for many individuals.
My overall point is that you should speak with more furries, there’s more going on there than you choose to acknowledge. Reducing it all to “fetish” is harmful and does harm the overall LGBTQ+ community.
Questioning and invalidating another’s gender or sexuality identity sets the precedent and framework for yours to be questioned and invalidated in turn.
This is incoherent to me.
How so? Also it would help if you didn’t cut off the quote mid phrase.
I’m giving a family resemblance definition of furry sexual. I’m not making any deep claims about the activities of any particular furries.
You’re presupposing the conclusion you want to draw. I don’t believe furry is a gender so you’re not going to convince me that wearing a fur suit is gender affirming care.
I’m not reducing the entire furry fandom to fetish. I’m claiming that it’s a fetish community. Does it have more depth than that? Yes, but that doesn’t change the nature of the fandom. You could make the same claim about adult babies. They do more than just wear diapers. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s inherently a fetish community.
I’m not questioning anyone’s gender or sexuality, so I’m not worried about that happening.
This has been a long conversation. It’s been getting less focused and more repetitive, so I’m going to call it here. I hope you have a good day.
because people are born with these predilections, they don’t buy them off of temu.
Predilections for certain features, what makes you so certain anthropomorphism isn’t one of those predilections?
We see homosexuality in the wild. Sexual coercion in animals isn’t cute or cuddly. Usually non consensual and violent to the point of fatality. This is not the premise you want to pursue unless you’re embracing the beastiality premise of fursonas which I’ve been repeatedly assured is not their thing.
None of this helps your argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion_among_animals
You’re miscategorizing it and anthropomorphs aren’t real.
It’s more closely related to objectophilia or fictosexuality which are also seen in nature.
It’s to bestiality as homosexuality is to pedophilia. As in it’s not related at all.