Honestly a great take. While i generally doesn’t mind throttle-only use of an ebike, some of these machine is just way too fast, to the point people are starting to look at ebike like they look at car.
This guy is one of my favorite YouTubers.
We can address this after cars make up less than 10% of traffic. Until then, subjecting ebikes with less power than a 49cc toy to the same requirements as a 1000+cc bike only serves to encourage driving.
Hell subjecting that 1000cc bike to greater requirements than a an f150 is insane.
Basically until my 30’s, there were essentially three categories of 2-wheeled vehicle:
- Bicycle. Strictly human power.
- Moped. Gasoline or gas/human hybrid power, limited in speed, must ride on roads, no sidewalks or bike paths, no license required
- Motorcycle. Gas powered, essentially treated like a 2-wheeled car.
e-bikes that try to push the boundries of these rules are a problem, because they encourage unsafe behavior like riding a machine that goes as fast as a moped on a walking trail. “It’s a pedal assist!” he says, having just shattered a pedestrian’s leg in a 32mph head on collision on a greenway.
I don’t think I personally support use of an e-bike beyond class 1 as anything but a moped. Like, a moped with a 35cc engine that can go 20mph tops is still classified as a moped, why should electric propulsion rather than gas propulsion change that?
I think it’s disengenuous to compare an e-bike to a 1000cc motorcycle. An Aprilia RS50, with it’s 49cc engine, 6 speed transmission and top speed of 55mph, is by North Carolina law a motorcycle. It controls like one, it behaves like one, and it should be treated like one.
A lot of these e-bikes are more like mopeds than bicycles, and should be treated as such.
My idea: More electric mopeds! And more electric motorcycles! I want an electric motorcycle with equivalent performance (and range) of my old Ninja 250. Weird thing is, nobody seems to even try to make such a thing, every electric motorcycle I’m shown is an attempt to replicate the acceleration of a 650cc bike that’ll barely get you out of shouting range.
In most countries, <50cc scooters have no liscense requirements and therefore quite popular. They’re not popular in the US because they also have the requirements of a 1000cc bike.
The core issue here is that motorbikes are overregulated in the US compared to cars.
My perspective is biased because I’ve only lived in car-hell where it was extremely dangerous to ride a motorbike, and places where riding ~<150cc motorbikes and high power electrics on bike paths or even sidewalks, at relevant speeds, was perfectly acceptable, and its not uncommon to see electric scooters doing 35 on a road or 8 on a sidewalk.
Maybe the solution is to have speed limits for sidewalks and bikelanes.
Yeah, no. That’s not the solution.
I have quite a lot of hands on experience in a couple states in America regarding scooters and smaller motorcycles, at a time when scooters (the legal term used here is “moped”) did not require any licensing, registration or insurance to ride on the road. Indeed, mopeds were sometimes called “liquor cycles” because you’d find them driven by those who have lost vehicles or licenses to DUIs.
Mopeds aren’t popular choices for transportation in large parts of the United States because they are not suited to the transportation needs of typical Americans.
In very dense cities, you’re probably better off walking and/or using public transport, because you’re going to be sitting in traffic on that moped.
In your smaller urban environments, you might get by with a moped, but even then there’s enough 45mph stroads that a moped is probably a poor choice. The ~150cc twist-and-go scooter that is highway capable would be a decent choice but that’s legally a motorcycle.
In suburban environments or less dense, your trip to the grocery store is probably down a section of highway. A moped is dangerously slow and carries way too little cargo for a typical American grocery run.
Which is why I traded for my Aprilia RS50. Which is a rare bike in the United States, though it is (or was) common in Europe. This thing was a 6 horsepower superbike; it was built like a MotoGP race bike, because that’s exactly what it is, it’s used in the most junior bracket of MotoGP racing, you graduate from there to 125cc and then on up. In Britain, they’re restricted to 30mph and used as, like, training bikes. A young teenager can ride one with those L plates for awhile before graduating to a higher license that allows higher speeds and more powerful engines. So, on that basis I can assert you are exactly wrong, smaller motorcycles are popular in Europe than they are in the United States because they are over-regulated; an artificial market is created for them. Said artificial market does not exist in the United States.
The distances Americans have to travel, cars are infinitely safer and more useful. I’ve walked this walk. I commuted by both scooter and small bore motorcycle. I’ve crashed every bike I’ve owned, single-vehicle lowsides every one. I’ve ridden in all weather. I rode my motorcycle around a small college campus, and with a 36 mile commute to work. I’ve done long distance riding. It ain’t for everyone.
To get people to start riding bicycles, even electric assisted ones, as a default instead of cars in the United States? You wouldn’t get it done if you rubbed Aladdin’s lamp, it would take more than three wishes. You’d have to change the landscape. The absolute wrong way to do it is just insist that, somewhere else in the world, riding power bikes on the sidewalk is okay, so it should be here, too. No, what happens if you try that is some 15 year old crashes into a pregnant woman on the sidewalk going 25 mph, she miscarries on the spot and all three of you go to prison for abortion.
We can address this after cars make up less than 10% of traffic.
That is not even achievable in Netherland, let alone America. You’re just kicking the can down the road.
Its been achieved here in vietnam, and I wouldnt be surprised if parts of several chinese cities were close to that.
Its actually crazy being able to cross a city or town without having to stop for traffic (outside hcmc and hanoi) and park 3 feet from that cool place you just saw’s entrance.
As long as addressing the issue discourages riding, its better to kick the can down the road.
Its been achieved here in vietnam, and I wouldnt be surprised if parts of several chinese cities were close to that.
Huh, neat. What city? Would visit some day.
As long as addressing the issue discourages riding, its better to kick the can down the road.
If addressing safety issue for everyone involved is discouraging riding, i genuinely not sure what is wrong with society. It’s not even license requirement, just have sensible speed and spec for a thing that’s called “bicycle”
I am in Sa Pa right now, but most of the cities are like that, especially the smaller ones. They could do a little more for pedestrians, sometimes you have to walk on the street, though it doesnt feel unsafe, and only the steepest places have stairs for pedestrians, but I really like this town.
Nothing will solidify your hate for cars more than seeing literally hundreds of riders stop every 5 minutes because 3 cars have to come to a complete stop every time theres an oncoming bus or van.
It’s not even license requirement
Isn’t it? My understanding from the video is he wants this popular non-car mode of transportation to regulated the same way that motorscooters of similar power are regulated. If this happens, I expect these unregulated motorbikes to become as unpopular as regulated ones, as former riders go with the next most convenient way to do 55mph, a car.
If this happens, I expect these unregulated motorbikes to become as unpopular as regulated ones, as former riders go with the next most convenient way to do 55mph, a car.
I’m not following how an automobile would be the “next most convenient” method, if the existing laws that classifies over-powered two-wheelers as motorcycles were properly enforced. This is how I imagine it would look:
Current riders of over-powered two-wheelers might be categorized as any of: 1) minors who don’t qualify for any type of driving license, plus adults that have too many driving record points, yet still have places to go, 2) minors who could obtain a driving license but can’t afford an automobile, and still have places to go, 3) minors or adults who are not interested in dealing with mainline road traffic and would rather over speed on trails and off-street paths, 4) they are simply unaware of the legal quagmire that regulated over-powered two-wheelers but are otherwise happy with their choice of transportation.
In this breakdown, riders in categories 1 and 3 would not consider switching to an automobile as a viable alternative, because of the licensure and complexity/boringness of driving a car. A crackdown on overpowered two-wheelers leaves these riders with basically nothing.
For category 2 rider, a legal ebike would be cheaper than buying and maintaining a car. Though this is muddled because riders in this category might already have had cars, but had reduced their mileage because they had a two-wheeler to use instead.
For category 4 riders, if they were happy with their mode of transportation, then some might continue to operate illegally and accept that. But others might pursue a motorcycle license, seeing as they have no issue running at higher speeds and powers alongside mainline road traffic. The primary disincentive for riding motorcycles in the USA is not licensure or wearing safety gear, but is one’s personal level of acceptable risk when riding alongside automobiles driven by distracted drivers. Since category 4 riders had no qualms about that before, getting these riders licensed and insured is a more-surmountable obstacle.
And motorcycles are cool.
My point is that it’s nowhere near a “ban ebikes and they’ll all suddenly drive cars” scenario, but there’s a substantial amount of nuance in what constitutes good public policy, whether that’s to increase enforcement of existing laws for two-wheelers, add new redundant law, enforce laws against motorists, develop more public transit options for riders in categories 1-3, or something else.
That 1000cc bike is a lot harder to operate than an F-150. Regulations concerning motorcycles are mostly there to protect people from their own stupidity. And that certainly goes for electric ones too.
I’m not saying no laws should protect people from themselves, but there is a big difference between a machine that is likely to harm someone else vs just the operator when operated unsafely.
The issues is that these “bikes” end up being used in mixed pedestrian/bicycle areas where they can seriously harm other cyclist and pedestrians. If they don’t end up harming them they will make everyone feel less safe than a normal bicycle (with limited electric assistance) that needs effort to accelerate rapidly and therefore will stay much closer to a cruising speed where they don’t need to accelerate/brake rapidly.
The class 1,2,3 system is only confusing if you’re a moron. Santa Barbara has the right idea, identifying a problem with “high powered ebikes” which are sold with >750 watt motors, which makes them too high powered to legally be ebikes. These are in moped or electric motorcycle territory.
It’s not the class system that is confusing it’s the enforcement. The video kinda made it clear, it’s impossible to enforce because you have to stop everyone to check everything because the one with a law-breaking spec often looks the same as the one that is not, and most of the time parent also doesn’t know what they get into. As we all know, law mean shit if it’s impossible to enforce.
I’m in full agreement, and want to note that the confusion regarding enforcement started well before ebikes became a thing, at least in California.
To see why, we have to turn back to the 1970s, when mopeds – legally, a “motorized bicycle” – were introduced. At the time, the definition described a “device” (so not a vehicle in California) with a max 30 MPH (48 kph) limit on level ground, a 4 HP (3 kW) max engine output, an automatic transmission , and operative pedals. This hewed almost identically to the original Swedish mopeds, which existed in the context of a max 50 kph speed limit in urban areas.
Fast forward to sometime in the 2000s or early 2010s, the California definition of moped gained a proviso for electric-powered mopeds, with a max motor output of 3 kW but removed the requirements for an automatic transmission (bc irrelevancy) and the pedals.
So since that time, enforcement of mopeds would have been confusing, since an electric motorcycle (always has been legal) and an electric moped can share the same appearance but differ only in limited power output and speed. Though the market for electric mopeds didn’t explode anywhere near what happened in the 2010s and 2020s with ebikes.
But the problem was always there, just now exacerbated. But I do think even the three-class system as implemented in California has other problems with enforcement as well.
For example, a class 2 and class 3 ebike have different operating requirements. To ride a class 3, the rider must be 16+ years old and a helmet is mandatory, even if over 18 years old. Under the law, to stop an underage rider on suspicion of operating a class 3 ebike would require separate information that the rider is not at least 16. In practice, this is an invitation for police profiling, stopping riders because “you look too young” and that’s patently objectionable.
If a rider is stopped for something else (eg the helmet requirement for class 3) and their age is noticed from their ID during the stop, then that’s a fair cop. But anytime that enforcement results in unjustified profiling and stops that are not premised by reasonable suspicion, that’s where civil rights erode. Not just for those riders that are pulled over, but everyone who travels the roads. No one would be safe.
P.S. Anyone looking through the history of the California Vehicle Code should be aware that there were once two definitions of “motorized bicycle”, one which meant moped and another which was the early prototype that preceded the ebike class system. The latter was removed circa 2018, after the class system was already in use for two years. That’s… totally not confusing at all, legislators…
This isn’t hard to solve, just have the manufacturers sell them with mandatory class tags, so that everyone knows immediately what they are, what speed limit they have to obey and where they’re allowed to go.
You can even create dedicated lanes for each class, for safety.
There are dedicated lanes for motorcycles already. Other than that, I agree.
Dedicated lanes for motorcycles, as in, the same as the car lanes?
Around my neck of the woods there are no dedicated motorcycle lanes - they can make use of bus lanes, same as taxis, and can’t use bicycle lanes.
But yeah, just sort them into classes at the factory, and make the rules around that - like for medium power vehicles it could demand insurance, for high power ask for registration and a driver’s license too, for low power/bycicles just a very basic course taught at schools but where kids they issued their very own initial “drivers license”.
By dedicated lanes for motorcycles I mean roads. What I’m trying to say is that motorcycles should not be in bicycle lanes and that includes motorcycles posing as bicycles.
I gotta get one of these 4 wheel e-cargo bikes for work. It would be super awesome to skip the traffic and ride the bike lanes.
Sorry, you’re not a multi-billion dollar mega Corp, so you’re limited to 3 wheels.
The truth hurts
I liked this guy’s videos, but what’s with the random ablism?? Completely out of left field and nobody seems to even notice? Can somebody explain please?
Did you even watch the video? He even addressed the point about which you’re asking. Repeatedly.
Yeah so, I don’t think you know what I was referring to since he mentioned it offhandedly. You may not even have noticed him saying it. It’s his need to include it and the seeming lack of reponse by anyone that I find puzzling.
I’m referring to him saying emotional support animals don’t belong in restaurants, by the way.
Wait your comment was about a small part of the video unconnected to the main point. You gotta mention that if you expect people to not assume its about comments that would fit with your comment that is about the main point of the video. Its unreasonable to expect otherwise.
I thought saying it’s ‘out of left field’ and hard to notice would clue people in, hoping from a response from people who had also already taken notice. I didn’t want to start a discussion on emotional support animals, just on why people don’t seem to take notice of something like that being said.
Out of left field just says the abilism comment came out of no where but not that its not on topic so its completely natural to assume you are talking about the role of electric bikes in folks with less mobility. Which honestly just causes the person to sorta wonder about you because. out of left field? with electric bikes and mobility? I mean once you specifically mentioned the animals it became clear but the initial comment is just one of those things that because you noticed it and thought about it you noticed it but because you were not specific people thought you were talking about something different.
Yeah that seems to be the case, you’re right.
Sure, can you leave a timestamp about the part you’re referring to?
It’s at 13:45.
It seems like he’s referring to the very real problem of people getting a doctor’s note to let them bring an untrained animal anywhere as if it were a trained service animal, and relating that to people putting pedals on a motorcycle to let them go anywhere a bike would be allowed.
It’s an apt comparison as people with trained service animals and compliant ebikes are both hurt by others who bend or break their respective rules.
very real problem
Is it though? Not a problem I’ve ever encountered, unlike dangerous ebikes. And the latter causes actual injury, not just a minor nuisance, so I wouldn’t call it an apt comparison either.
If, however, the commonly held opinion is that animals in restaurants are as big a problem as dangerous motor vehicles… I guess that explains the lack of response at least.
