In this setting, liberals face a conundrum. How far should they maintain traditional liberal ideals, and how far should they move towards non-liberal, and potentially illiberal, ideologies if these seem more promising for the purposes of social change?

  • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    2 hours ago

    We take a lot of liberal values for granted these days, which ironically makes liberalism an easy target. We owe human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of press, and secularism to liberalism, not to socialism.

    Sure, but you can share individual values with an ideology without agreeing with it as a whole.

    Socialist regimes sadly has a mixed record of guaranteeing these rights.

    Oh boy, wait until you here about the record of liberal regimes when it comes to guaranteeing these rights…

    I would rather live in a liberal non-socialist society where human rights are respected and I can assemble and protest, than in an illiberal socialist society where I am silenced and human rights are not respected.

    Ok. What exactly is your point? I would rather live under feudalism and be healthy than live under liberalism and be quadriplegic. Does that make me a feudalist?

    I think liberal ideals can only be sustained under socialism

    Some of them can, like freedom of expression, and and some of them can’t, like enclosure of the means of production by private capital.

    Right now human rights and fundamental freedoms are under heavy attack

    Right now? Are you under the impression there was a time when they weren’t? The difference is that now the labour aristocrats of the global North are starting to feel the squeeze.

    It’s weird to me that people are so hesitant to recognize their liberal heritage.

    You mean the gilded age? The industrial revolution? The triangle trade? Liberal heritage in practice is pretty fucking grim when it comes to human rights, and only really improved when global socialist movements got strong enough to force concessions in the early twentieth century. (And is getting worse again now that that socialist movement has been broken)

    we don’t have a shared ideological basis on which we can state that freedom of speech and human rights needs to be protected.

    Sure we do, socialism.

    But of course, neoliberalism destroys everything it touches

    Neoliberalism represents the natural and inevitable progression of capitalism, profits will be maximized at the expense of workers, and the squeeze will only increase as the marginal rate is profit decreases. Neoliberalism is just a return to the natural, pre-twentieth century state of capitalism after a period of disruption.

    To me it’s more symptomatic of the feudalist shit liberalism was trying to fix in the first place.

    Ok, but it’s not. Neoliberalism is only similar to feudalism in that it’s exploitative, but nothing more.