Honestly, this is why I don’t discuss Mormon history and the massive, gaping chasms in their claims of Truth with my parents. My parents are old–old enough that the family is talking about who is going to call the coroner, who’s going to deal with tying up finances, etc.–and knowing that they’ve wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn’t going to do anything useful at this point. Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it. Now? Meh.
I mean, I wasn’t. At all. But the dying little old ladies who sundowned so bad that they sometimes thought I was their grandchild? When they asked if I believed in Jesus, I’d bite my tongue and tell them yes. I hated having to lie to their faces, I hate even thinking about it all these years later, but some of them had nothing to look forward to except “going to heaven” by that point. Lying seemed the most ethical choice.
I would think you’d need to tell lots of lies to someone in that state to not make things difficult over and over for them. Jesus would just be another one on that pile.
You got it. Sometimes the safest thing to do when somebody’s having hallucinations is to play along, and that means telling lots of lies. Sometimes people think their kids (who are well into their 60s) are still newborns, and they will have a panic attack because they don’t know where their “baby” is. I’ve reassured people that I “just set the baby down to nap” numerous times.
I’ve seen people treat dolls like real babies, too, and one time a lady rolled up to me in her wheelchair, asking to see a doctor because her baby (a doll with food smeared over its mouth) wasn’t eating. I even went so far as to get those “magic” doll bottle things that appear to “empty” when you tip them.
Point is, you’re right. But I don’t feel as conflicted about all the other lies I told, I guess the religion thing is just too … I dunno, “icky” for me? I’m an out atheist with pretty much everyone else. I don’t like having to go back into a closet.
One set of lies is about their past or present. The Jesus one is about their future. It’s a lot easier to lie to someone about the former two than to tell them there’s no future, they’ll never be whole or happy again. We all need a reason to look forward, a reason to keep the chin up and carry on. Most anyone can empathetically understand how crushing it would be if they were told that they were going to die soon, so telling an Alzheimer’s victim that there’s nothing to look forward to rings a similar bell in our heads.
I mean to make it easier I guess I would just tell myself I am convinced that Jesus existed. So I believe in him. But not “in Him” capital H.
Or you could imagine yourself cheering Jesus on and hoping he will do well in sports ball for the Jerusalem league. I could see him as a solid basketball player with the magical powers and all.
knowing that they’ve wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn’t going to do anything useful at this point.
It always gets me how people can be so comfortable with tithing while so prickly about paying taxes. I’ve straight up heard “every dollar I give to the government is one I can’t give to the church” as an argument, when the town and state I’m living in is joined at the hip with the church they love.
Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it.
Church is one of those third-spaces that the unemployed and retired flock to when they’ve got too much time and not a ton of money. A great deal of the appeal of these places, especially back in my parents’ day, was as a social center with a feel-good energy. As a born-and-raised Houstonian I’ve seen it work on enormous numbers of otherwise-religiously-apathetic people. The whole Joel Osteen model is Good Vibes as a religious experience. One big Jesus Themed Pep Rally.
I think you can probably logic your way to a “God’s Not Real” conclusion with a generic religiously-ambivalent lay person. But I don’t think a simple logic chain is enough to convince folks who consider religion a form of community recreation to stop showing up. No more than you could talk someone out of blaring their favorite brand of Country Music or driving an oversized pickup truck or playing with their toy guns down at the gun range.
These just aren’t logical decisions. They are social decisions.
I got a Father in Law that tithes his retirement income from the military to his church and votes hard republican. But he abstained from Trump voting so he considers himself enlightened.
I don’t know that my parents were ever the kind of person that bitched about paying taxes. They might have privately, but i don’t remember it ever being a big deal. Me, I understand that my taxes are too low for what I expect the gov’t to be doing.
And you’re exactly right about the social experience. One of the enormous struggles for atheists has been building a community. Churches fill that need, even though they cause real harms in other ways. If you go to a church, it’s easy to meet people and make friends when you move to a new community. If you don’t, well, good luck because you’re going to need it.
Honestly, this is why I don’t discuss Mormon history and the massive, gaping chasms in their claims of Truth with my parents. My parents are old–old enough that the family is talking about who is going to call the coroner, who’s going to deal with tying up finances, etc.–and knowing that they’ve wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn’t going to do anything useful at this point. Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it. Now? Meh.
When I worked in a nursing home, I was Christian.
I mean, I wasn’t. At all. But the dying little old ladies who sundowned so bad that they sometimes thought I was their grandchild? When they asked if I believed in Jesus, I’d bite my tongue and tell them yes. I hated having to lie to their faces, I hate even thinking about it all these years later, but some of them had nothing to look forward to except “going to heaven” by that point. Lying seemed the most ethical choice.
I would think you’d need to tell lots of lies to someone in that state to not make things difficult over and over for them. Jesus would just be another one on that pile.
You got it. Sometimes the safest thing to do when somebody’s having hallucinations is to play along, and that means telling lots of lies. Sometimes people think their kids (who are well into their 60s) are still newborns, and they will have a panic attack because they don’t know where their “baby” is. I’ve reassured people that I “just set the baby down to nap” numerous times.
I’ve seen people treat dolls like real babies, too, and one time a lady rolled up to me in her wheelchair, asking to see a doctor because her baby (a doll with food smeared over its mouth) wasn’t eating. I even went so far as to get those “magic” doll bottle things that appear to “empty” when you tip them.
Point is, you’re right. But I don’t feel as conflicted about all the other lies I told, I guess the religion thing is just too … I dunno, “icky” for me? I’m an out atheist with pretty much everyone else. I don’t like having to go back into a closet.
One set of lies is about their past or present. The Jesus one is about their future. It’s a lot easier to lie to someone about the former two than to tell them there’s no future, they’ll never be whole or happy again. We all need a reason to look forward, a reason to keep the chin up and carry on. Most anyone can empathetically understand how crushing it would be if they were told that they were going to die soon, so telling an Alzheimer’s victim that there’s nothing to look forward to rings a similar bell in our heads.
I mean to make it easier I guess I would just tell myself I am convinced that Jesus existed. So I believe in him. But not “in Him” capital H.
Or you could imagine yourself cheering Jesus on and hoping he will do well in sports ball for the Jerusalem league. I could see him as a solid basketball player with the magical powers and all.
Nothing wrong with lying there obviously.
It always gets me how people can be so comfortable with tithing while so prickly about paying taxes. I’ve straight up heard “every dollar I give to the government is one I can’t give to the church” as an argument, when the town and state I’m living in is joined at the hip with the church they love.
Church is one of those third-spaces that the unemployed and retired flock to when they’ve got too much time and not a ton of money. A great deal of the appeal of these places, especially back in my parents’ day, was as a social center with a feel-good energy. As a born-and-raised Houstonian I’ve seen it work on enormous numbers of otherwise-religiously-apathetic people. The whole Joel Osteen model is Good Vibes as a religious experience. One big Jesus Themed Pep Rally.
I think you can probably logic your way to a “God’s Not Real” conclusion with a generic religiously-ambivalent lay person. But I don’t think a simple logic chain is enough to convince folks who consider religion a form of community recreation to stop showing up. No more than you could talk someone out of blaring their favorite brand of Country Music or driving an oversized pickup truck or playing with their toy guns down at the gun range.
These just aren’t logical decisions. They are social decisions.
I got a Father in Law that tithes his retirement income from the military to his church and votes hard republican. But he abstained from Trump voting so he considers himself enlightened.
Exactly.
I don’t know that my parents were ever the kind of person that bitched about paying taxes. They might have privately, but i don’t remember it ever being a big deal. Me, I understand that my taxes are too low for what I expect the gov’t to be doing.
And you’re exactly right about the social experience. One of the enormous struggles for atheists has been building a community. Churches fill that need, even though they cause real harms in other ways. If you go to a church, it’s easy to meet people and make friends when you move to a new community. If you don’t, well, good luck because you’re going to need it.