I’m going to get a lot of hate for this, but for the majority of furries, their fandom is at least party sexual in nature with over 70% of furries reporting they they view furry porn. Personally, I find that disgusting and I feel that the furry community’s constant need for validation detracts from the seriousness of LGBT issues at large. I may be wrong in my judgements, but the claim that furries are just people with a hobby is an attempt to sweep an inconvenient truth under the rug.
Online use: Approximately 69% of American men and 40% of American women view online porn each year.
Other people view porn too. Do you now find everyone disgusting? Also, what’s the source of you claim that over 70% of furries view furry porn? And how does it matter? They’re individuals, and can make choices on their own.
The only way it’s only 69% of men is if 31% of them have no Internet access, lol.
I remember a decade or so ago reading about an attempt to do a study on porn consumption for men, but they literally were unable to cobble together a control group because they all watch porn.
Other people view porn too. Do you now find everyone disgusting?
No. I don’t find porn in general disgusting. I find furry porn disgusting because it borders on bestiality. You obviously know that’s what I meant. Don’t be obtuse.
Also, what’s the source of you claim that over 70% of furries view furry porn?
And how does it matter? They’re individuals, and can make choices on their own.
They are individuals and can make choices on their own. However, I have already expressed why I think it matters. I personally believe the furry community is harmful toward the LGBT movement. Regardless, it matters simply because it’s the truth and there is a major misconception that being a furry isn’t a kink because it isn’t inherently sexual, despite the fact that it is a kink for the majority of furries.
I find furry porn disgusting because it borders on bestiality.
The only reason bestiality is really a problem in the real world is because of the intelligence/sapience difference between humans and animals.
That doesn’t exist in the fantasy worlds of furries, where the human-animal hybrids all have human-level intelligence.
You’re using the same logic that made Australian authorities ban women with A-cup breasts from being porn actresses: 'female children don’t have large breasts either, therefore porn of a flat-chested woman ‘borders on pedophilia’.
No. It’s clearly not the same logic. I have no problem with anyone’s body shape. If an actress were to act out the role of a child in an adult film, then I would have a problem. Since you want to take it there, then I’ll point out that you are using the same logic as the people who claim certain art is not pedophilic because the child’s body is canonically inhabited by a thousand year old soul. Is that context readily apparent? Is that context entirely relevant? I would argue it is not.
This just opens more questions than it answers. Like, I know this is from a children’s movie, but since we are discussing furry sexuality, suppose it was furry porn. How could a bunny realistically consent to a fox? Is that not a problematic power dynamic? It sounds like a stupid question, but I shouldn’t even have to evaluate these sorts of questions. It shows that I don’t need to understand the intricacies of pornographic material to be able to decide if it’s gross or not. (And before you ask, I don’t like power in balances in human porn either.)
I’d also like to emphasize that I am not drawing a moral comparison between furries and pedophiles. I don’t care if furries want to do their thing behind closed doors. I personally find it gross, and think that the way the furry community suppresses this side of their fandom is unhealthy and potentially a public health risk, but I do not have a moral qualm with furries in principle. I’m not advocating for making furries illegal or anything. I simply think they need to collectively admit that the sexual side of their fandom exists and is prevalent.
I personally believe the furry community is harmful toward the LGBT movement.
The same logic is used by transmedicalists to call non-binary people harmful to LGBT because they are “weird”. The rest was perfectly explained by @[email protected].
That’s categorically incorrect. First of all, I never said the harm towards the LGBT community is caused by the fact that furries are weird. Being a furry is independent of sexual and gender identity. The implication that they are the same is the very thing that is harmful to the LGBT movement. The fact that furries are weird just amplifies the issue.
The issue is that you’re conflating “furry sexuality” with beastiality when they come from very different places with very different outcomes and moral implications.
The short story is that humans at ~10yrs old start learning and coding for what features they find sexually attractive which happens to co-incide with the target audience for many anthropomorphic films/cartoons/etc. and so some small percentage start developing an aesthetic and/or sexual preference for animorphism which then creates a subculture that feeds back onto itself.
It’s not “beastiality” it’s “mickey mouse-iality”. It’s not a sexual attraction to animals, it does not result in harm to animals, it does not result in rape or consent violations from those unable to give consent. It’s as close to beastiality as anime girls are.
that seems to bring up another issue, which is the overtly-cute, cartoon nature that seems to be very attractive to children.
I also find anime girls problematic as so much of that porn blurs the line between adults and children, which gets into some strange differences - apparently in japan, they don’t consider depiction of minors as problematic as we do. I think it’s outrageously creepy.
so interesting thing to bring up, because some will find ALL OF THIS very off putting, and for good reason.
Yeah, if I’m honest I probably chose anime girls as my comparison point for that reason and because I also find it all a bit unappealing.
However, if someone was running around and saying anyone with an anime profile is a pedophile my response would be the same. Anime girls ultimately harm no-one.
I understand the mechanics of it. I’m not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality. I am still repulsed by the attraction to anthropomorphic animals just as much as I am to the attraction to real animals - especially the furry art featuring non-human genitals. It’s gross, it’s weird, and it’s a perversion of childhood themes that I would prefer not to be so public.
I’m not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality
You literally said in a comment further down:
I don’t find porn in general disgusting. I find furry porn disgusting because it borders on bestiality.
It’s perfectly valid for you to have the feelings of “It’s gross, it’s weird, and a perversion of my childhood themes. I don’t like it, and I don’t want to see it” because honestly; Same.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the “real” LGBTQ individuals.
It becomes especially problematic when you start equivocating it to things that are actually harmful like beastiality and is no different than the “all gays are pedophiles” trope.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the “real” LGBTQ individuals.
yet I can totally see why LGBTQ people would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the fursona types. life’s hard enough explaining the intricacies of human sexuality without tossing in cartoon hypotheticals.
I can totally see why women would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the gender non-conforming. life’s hard enough explaining the intricacies of womanhood without tossing in crossdressing hypotheticals.
Not calling you a TERF, but you do see the logical fallacy you’re sprinting straight into, right?
I’m using something we can, hopefully, both agree you’re not and is problematic to demonstrate the fallicious logic. What would be a better way to communicate that?
How about you go fuck yourself, furry style, and get blocked, dickhead. I’ll be damned if some random asshole is going to call me a terf because I don’t think fursuited = queer.
Again. I’m not conflating the two. You quote me on explaining why I personally find it disgusting. Then you tell me it’s okay for me to have that feeling. Great. We’re on the same page.
The problem isn’t conflating anthropomorphic animal porn with animal porn, it’s conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Edit: I will also add that I’m not arguing we do anything to furries. If you look for my calls to action, I’m clearly just arguing that people need to admit it’s a fetish community. I’m not saying we need to shove furries in the closet or make it illegal to be a furry. However, even if I did say that it would be difficult to argue it’s the same as violating LGBT rights because sex and gender are central to a person’s identity while being a furry is not.
sex and gender are central to a person’s identity while being a furry is not.
Sex and gender are clearly central to your identity, just as much as ‘furry’ is central, sometimes exclusively, to other people’s identity.
it’s conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Who are you to define what is or isn’t a legitimate sexual or gender identity? Identity is a personal and subjective thing. For many ‘furry’ is a gender and/or sexual identity and to say that it isn’t is no different than arguing with a trans person about theirs.
The issue isn’t that you are explicitly making some call to action, it’s that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not ‘just part of the fetish community’?
I’m not the one to define these terms. At best, furry is a case of gender expression, not gender identity. These are not the same concept, and I would argue that furry is not even gender expression since there isn’t an underlying gender identity for it to express, though I am not an expert here.
The issue isn’t that you are explicitly making some call to action, it’s that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
That’s not what I’m doing. Let me be clear about my central claim - the furry community is a fetish community. While I have given my personal feelings on the matter, my arguments have all been in service of this claim. Even if I were attempting to other furries, I wouldn’t feel that bad on the basis that I don’t believe it’s a sexual orientation, sexual identity, or gender identity, rather I believe it’s a fetish. However, that’s not what I’m intending to do, though I admit that sharing my personal feelings on the matter may have come across that way.
If I did kink shame anybody, or otherwise make furries feel like inferior people, I want to apologize here. I don’t have an issue with furries. I hope they can continue to enjoy their fetish. I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not ‘just part of the fetish community’?
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that’s brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
To give my answer, it’s because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not defined by their pornographic material, sex toys, roleplay scenarios, or a shared hobby in the way that furry sexuality is.
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that’s brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
When those don’t align that’s usually referred to as dysphoria/dysmorphia. That’s what the fursuits are for, just like HRT, tattoos, piercings, clothing, etc.
I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
What it is, or what you perceive it to be? I don’t disagree that fetish is a part of it, but that’s true of any gender/sexuality etc. It’s like flattening down all homosexuality to leather daddies.
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for “straight” and “gay”. Would adding a “furry” site really feel all that strange or out of place?
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don’t think that’s as strongly correlated as you’re suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I’m unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for “straight” and “gay”. Would adding a “furry” site really feel all that strange or out of place?
Porn categories do not define sexual orientations, so I do not understand your point. Sexual orientation is a description of the sexual characteristics of yourself and the people you are attracted too, neither of which are decided by whether or not either of you are furries.
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don’t think that’s as strongly correlated as you’re suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I’m unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
I’m not claiming all furries do all those things. I’m saying that all of the characteristics that make someone furry sexual are covered by the categories I listed. None of the categories I listed are relevant to whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual.
Also, the hobby that many furries share (I never said all) is fur suiting.
We see homosexuality in the wild. Sexual coercion in animals isn’t cute or cuddly. Usually non consensual and violent to the point of fatality. This is not the premise you want to pursue unless you’re embracing the beastiality premise of fursonas which I’ve been repeatedly assured is not their thing.
Then we do not have the same experience. From my perspective, people have been claiming for years that the sexual aspect of the furry community is only popularized by a vocal minority and that most furries are just individuals interested in a hobby. If that isn’t your stance, then you and I have no disagreement.
Personally, I find that disgusting and I feel that the furry community’s constant need for validation detracts from the seriousness of LGBT issues at large.
And the overt sexual displays in public places at Pride events don’t? That is objectively much more damaging to the attempts by the queer population to not be seen as deviant sex freaks by the general population.
The irony is that most people who wear fursuits don’t perform sex acts with them, while you won’t be able to find a single person at pride wearing bondage gear who will tell you that what they’re wearing is never ‘utilized’ in their bedroom.
Singling out furries in this way makes no sense, you’re just personally squicked by it and trying to rationalize that feeling.
P.S. Is a Star Trek fan not a ‘legitimate’ fan if they lust over Seven of Nine or any of the other characters?
The irony is that most people who wear fursuits don’t perform sex acts with them, while you won’t be able to find a single person at pride wearing bondage gear who will tell you that what they’re wearing is never ‘utilized’ in their bedroom.
Yes. That is harmful too.
Singling out furries in this way makes no sense, you’re just personally squicked by it and trying to rationalize that feeling.
I did say that I personally find it disgusting. My ability to reason is not somehow tainted by my opinions.
P.S. Is a Star Trek fan not a ‘legitimate’ fan if they lust over Seven of Nine or any of the other characters?
I never claimed that furries don’t like anthropomorphic animals if they view furry porn.
I’m going to get a lot of hate for this, but for the majority of furries, their fandom is at least party sexual in nature with over 70% of furries reporting they they view furry porn. Personally, I find that disgusting and I feel that the furry community’s constant need for validation detracts from the seriousness of LGBT issues at large. I may be wrong in my judgements, but the claim that furries are just people with a hobby is an attempt to sweep an inconvenient truth under the rug.
https://www.addictionhelp.com/porn/statistics/
Other people view porn too. Do you now find everyone disgusting? Also, what’s the source of you claim that over 70% of furries view furry porn? And how does it matter? They’re individuals, and can make choices on their own.
The only way it’s only 69% of men is if 31% of them have no Internet access, lol.
I remember a decade or so ago reading about an attempt to do a study on porn consumption for men, but they literally were unable to cobble together a control group because they all watch porn.
No. I don’t find porn in general disgusting. I find furry porn disgusting because it borders on bestiality. You obviously know that’s what I meant. Don’t be obtuse.
https://furscience.com/research-findings/sex-relationships-pornography/5-4-frequency-of-porn-use/
They are individuals and can make choices on their own. However, I have already expressed why I think it matters. I personally believe the furry community is harmful toward the LGBT movement. Regardless, it matters simply because it’s the truth and there is a major misconception that being a furry isn’t a kink because it isn’t inherently sexual, despite the fact that it is a kink for the majority of furries.
The only reason bestiality is really a problem in the real world is because of the intelligence/sapience difference between humans and animals.
That doesn’t exist in the fantasy worlds of furries, where the human-animal hybrids all have human-level intelligence.
You’re using the same logic that made Australian authorities ban women with A-cup breasts from being porn actresses: 'female children don’t have large breasts either, therefore porn of a flat-chested woman ‘borders on pedophilia’.
Ridiculous.
No. It’s clearly not the same logic. I have no problem with anyone’s body shape. If an actress were to act out the role of a child in an adult film, then I would have a problem. Since you want to take it there, then I’ll point out that you are using the same logic as the people who claim certain art is not pedophilic because the child’s body is canonically inhabited by a thousand year old soul. Is that context readily apparent? Is that context entirely relevant? I would argue it is not.
Yes.
Visible human emotions, walks on two legs, exhibits clear intelligence (talks, reasons, makes jokes, etc.)
They are called anthropomorphic for a reason. Nobody wants to fuck a real wolf.
This just opens more questions than it answers. Like, I know this is from a children’s movie, but since we are discussing furry sexuality, suppose it was furry porn. How could a bunny realistically consent to a fox? Is that not a problematic power dynamic? It sounds like a stupid question, but I shouldn’t even have to evaluate these sorts of questions. It shows that I don’t need to understand the intricacies of pornographic material to be able to decide if it’s gross or not. (And before you ask, I don’t like power in balances in human porn either.)
I’d also like to emphasize that I am not drawing a moral comparison between furries and pedophiles. I don’t care if furries want to do their thing behind closed doors. I personally find it gross, and think that the way the furry community suppresses this side of their fandom is unhealthy and potentially a public health risk, but I do not have a moral qualm with furries in principle. I’m not advocating for making furries illegal or anything. I simply think they need to collectively admit that the sexual side of their fandom exists and is prevalent.
The same logic is used by transmedicalists to call non-binary people harmful to LGBT because they are “weird”. The rest was perfectly explained by @[email protected].
That’s categorically incorrect. First of all, I never said the harm towards the LGBT community is caused by the fact that furries are weird. Being a furry is independent of sexual and gender identity. The implication that they are the same is the very thing that is harmful to the LGBT movement. The fact that furries are weird just amplifies the issue.
The issue is that you’re conflating “furry sexuality” with beastiality when they come from very different places with very different outcomes and moral implications.
The short story is that humans at ~10yrs old start learning and coding for what features they find sexually attractive which happens to co-incide with the target audience for many anthropomorphic films/cartoons/etc. and so some small percentage start developing an aesthetic and/or sexual preference for animorphism which then creates a subculture that feeds back onto itself.
It’s not “beastiality” it’s “mickey mouse-iality”. It’s not a sexual attraction to animals, it does not result in harm to animals, it does not result in rape or consent violations from those unable to give consent. It’s as close to beastiality as anime girls are.
that seems to bring up another issue, which is the overtly-cute, cartoon nature that seems to be very attractive to children. I also find anime girls problematic as so much of that porn blurs the line between adults and children, which gets into some strange differences - apparently in japan, they don’t consider depiction of minors as problematic as we do. I think it’s outrageously creepy.
so interesting thing to bring up, because some will find ALL OF THIS very off putting, and for good reason.
Yeah, if I’m honest I probably chose anime girls as my comparison point for that reason and because I also find it all a bit unappealing.
However, if someone was running around and saying anyone with an anime profile is a pedophile my response would be the same. Anime girls ultimately harm no-one.
I understand the mechanics of it. I’m not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality. I am still repulsed by the attraction to anthropomorphic animals just as much as I am to the attraction to real animals - especially the furry art featuring non-human genitals. It’s gross, it’s weird, and it’s a perversion of childhood themes that I would prefer not to be so public.
You literally said in a comment further down:
It’s perfectly valid for you to have the feelings of “It’s gross, it’s weird, and a perversion of my childhood themes. I don’t like it, and I don’t want to see it” because honestly; Same.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the “real” LGBTQ individuals.
It becomes especially problematic when you start equivocating it to things that are actually harmful like beastiality and is no different than the “all gays are pedophiles” trope.
yet I can totally see why LGBTQ people would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the fursona types. life’s hard enough explaining the intricacies of human sexuality without tossing in cartoon hypotheticals.
Yup
As the TERFs say:
Not calling you a TERF, but you do see the logical fallacy you’re sprinting straight into, right?
Cute straw man. Either I’m a terf or I agree with your premise. Neither, thanks.
I’m using something we can, hopefully, both agree you’re not and is problematic to demonstrate the fallicious logic. What would be a better way to communicate that?
How about you go fuck yourself, furry style, and get blocked, dickhead. I’ll be damned if some random asshole is going to call me a terf because I don’t think fursuited = queer.
Again. I’m not conflating the two. You quote me on explaining why I personally find it disgusting. Then you tell me it’s okay for me to have that feeling. Great. We’re on the same page.
The problem isn’t conflating anthropomorphic animal porn with animal porn, it’s conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Edit: I will also add that I’m not arguing we do anything to furries. If you look for my calls to action, I’m clearly just arguing that people need to admit it’s a fetish community. I’m not saying we need to shove furries in the closet or make it illegal to be a furry. However, even if I did say that it would be difficult to argue it’s the same as violating LGBT rights because sex and gender are central to a person’s identity while being a furry is not.
accidentally responded to myself instead of editing my previous comment
Sex and gender are clearly central to your identity, just as much as ‘furry’ is central, sometimes exclusively, to other people’s identity.
Who are you to define what is or isn’t a legitimate sexual or gender identity? Identity is a personal and subjective thing. For many ‘furry’ is a gender and/or sexual identity and to say that it isn’t is no different than arguing with a trans person about theirs.
The issue isn’t that you are explicitly making some call to action, it’s that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not ‘just part of the fetish community’?
I’m not the one to define these terms. At best, furry is a case of gender expression, not gender identity. These are not the same concept, and I would argue that furry is not even gender expression since there isn’t an underlying gender identity for it to express, though I am not an expert here.
That’s not what I’m doing. Let me be clear about my central claim - the furry community is a fetish community. While I have given my personal feelings on the matter, my arguments have all been in service of this claim. Even if I were attempting to other furries, I wouldn’t feel that bad on the basis that I don’t believe it’s a sexual orientation, sexual identity, or gender identity, rather I believe it’s a fetish. However, that’s not what I’m intending to do, though I admit that sharing my personal feelings on the matter may have come across that way.
If I did kink shame anybody, or otherwise make furries feel like inferior people, I want to apologize here. I don’t have an issue with furries. I hope they can continue to enjoy their fetish. I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that’s brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
To give my answer, it’s because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not defined by their pornographic material, sex toys, roleplay scenarios, or a shared hobby in the way that furry sexuality is.
appreciate the nuance in this reply.
When those don’t align that’s usually referred to as dysphoria/dysmorphia. That’s what the fursuits are for, just like HRT, tattoos, piercings, clothing, etc.
What it is, or what you perceive it to be? I don’t disagree that fetish is a part of it, but that’s true of any gender/sexuality etc. It’s like flattening down all homosexuality to leather daddies.
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for “straight” and “gay”. Would adding a “furry” site really feel all that strange or out of place?
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don’t think that’s as strongly correlated as you’re suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I’m unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
I think this vastly disregards the lifelong impacts of gender dysmorphia and is frankly kind of flippant.
Porn categories do not define sexual orientations, so I do not understand your point. Sexual orientation is a description of the sexual characteristics of yourself and the people you are attracted too, neither of which are decided by whether or not either of you are furries.
I’m not claiming all furries do all those things. I’m saying that all of the characteristics that make someone furry sexual are covered by the categories I listed. None of the categories I listed are relevant to whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual.
Also, the hobby that many furries share (I never said all) is fur suiting.
because people are born with these predilections, they don’t buy them off of temu.
Predilections for certain features, what makes you so certain anthropomorphism isn’t one of those predilections?
We see homosexuality in the wild. Sexual coercion in animals isn’t cute or cuddly. Usually non consensual and violent to the point of fatality. This is not the premise you want to pursue unless you’re embracing the beastiality premise of fursonas which I’ve been repeatedly assured is not their thing.
None of this helps your argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion_among_animals
I have literally never seen anyone claim being a furry is just a hobby lmao. Yes, it’s sexual. Who gives a shit?
Then we do not have the same experience. From my perspective, people have been claiming for years that the sexual aspect of the furry community is only popularized by a vocal minority and that most furries are just individuals interested in a hobby. If that isn’t your stance, then you and I have no disagreement.
And the overt sexual displays in public places at Pride events don’t? That is objectively much more damaging to the attempts by the queer population to not be seen as deviant sex freaks by the general population.
The irony is that most people who wear fursuits don’t perform sex acts with them, while you won’t be able to find a single person at pride wearing bondage gear who will tell you that what they’re wearing is never ‘utilized’ in their bedroom.
Singling out furries in this way makes no sense, you’re just personally squicked by it and trying to rationalize that feeling.
P.S. Is a Star Trek fan not a ‘legitimate’ fan if they lust over Seven of Nine or any of the other characters?
Yes. That is harmful too.
I did say that I personally find it disgusting. My ability to reason is not somehow tainted by my opinions.
I never claimed that furries don’t like anthropomorphic animals if they view furry porn.