I mean, honestly, if you really want to solidify the appearance of “not being a threat” this definitely works well. The problem is that the machine of state violence under fascism does not give a fuck. Non peaceful protest only works when the government has some care in the public response. It is useless if there is not an audience with power to convince of the injustice. Just ask the Palestinians during the Great March of Return (or countless other peaceful means of resistance throughout their history). No one with power gave a single fuck.
Dr. King’s policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains … His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That’s very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.
- Stokely Carmichael
Waiting for the CIA to do a false flag event in one of these outfits to ban costumes like this. But I don’t think they care enough. They aren’t afraid of a video of police beating the shit out of a dude in a costume. They already put pepper spray in the air intakes.
Americans need to drop the MLK mindset and go Black Panther Party right fucking now.
Non violence cannot be the only response to further violence.
The point of non-violence isn’t to sway the opinions of ICE or the Trump regime. The purpose of non-violence is to gain and maintain the support of the general public while dismantling the pillars of support for authoritarianism.
As soon as you start mercing people, you lose public support from the normies, and the bad guys get a justification to meet force with even more force. It’s not a winning strategy.
I’m not talking about random mercenary acts. I’m talking about defending yourself and your community from literal military invasion. For some reason self defensive violence is entirely understandable and just to most people. It’s a fundamental part of any justice system. Unless that self defensive violence is done in return to unjust state violence.
Everyone was rightfully ready to cheer on the Ukrainian civilians taking up arms against the Russian invasion. But, suddenly, when it’s happening here, that’s unjustifiable.
“Convincing the normies” won’t matter when you’re sitting in a labor camp.
Concerning nonviolence, it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks.
We are nonviolent with people that are nonviolent with us.
Notice I said nothing about what is just or unjust. I’m strictly talking tactics. And at this moment in the Trump regime’s authoritarian breakthrough, non-violence is still our best bet. History of these sorts of breakthroughs shows that authoritarian regimes are best countered by broad-based public resistance. And yes, that means from normies.
As soon as you start shooting back, you yield the upper hand to ICE and the regime’s goons. They know how to deal with violence… It is their language. What they don’t know how to deal with is a pissed-off grandma in a chicken costume with the full moral backing of 70% of the population.
The grandma will still die from breathing in the pepper spray they put in the air intake of the suite. You’re saying deaths of innocent protesters are worth it? I’m sorry, but have you been to a protest where ICE gets violent? Are you waiting until someone is killed? Because that’s already happened.
We should remain nonviolent in the face of our allies being abducted, tortured, and killed? Where is the line for you? Honestly?
Because I’m not saying this to get people to go do random acts of violence against ICE. I’m saying this so that people like you realize that the preparation for a resistance is needed NOW. You don’t just go out and be violent. That’s not at all what the Black Panther Party was doing. And honestly, that preparation is likely far too late even now.
When ICE commits violence against the unarmed grandma in the chicken suit, they radicalize ten more grandmas—and solidify the position of the normies against ICE.
And anyone who shows up to a protest is making their own risk assessment. Some protests are the strollers and marches type, and that’s a pretty low risk level. Some protests are spicier, and they tend to draw a different crowd with a different risk tolerance.
And yes, I’m saying we should remain non-violent in the face of ICE’s atrocities, because that is the best tactic for gaining and retaining the wide-spread support necessary to defeat them.
I think the part you’re missing is what that support gets us. When there’s wide-spread support for those opposing ICE, that gives us more of an ability (and the people power) to attack the pillars of support that prop up the authoritarian regime.
When ICE shows up. There are no nonviolent protest. Right now the violence is just in one direction.
Do you think an organized group of people physically protecting a Grandma from state violence is any less effective in radicalizing people? I’d argue it’s MORE effective. Do you think people want to go out and protest when they are surrounded by other people that will stand by and do nothing when they get grabbed?
All nonviolence is doing is allowing ICE to do their true violence in private. We don’t resist so they take someone away and do their violence off camera. They take their children away. They put them into camps and brutalize them. They kill them in a means that is not public or passed off to another country to do it for them.
Does resisting increase the risk of a lethal act at that time? Yes. But lethal acts are already happening. Right now they’re just happening off camera and “a man found dead in ICE detention” is the story.
Standing by and doing nothing is not reducing harm and it’s not helping radicalize people. It’s just allowing the state to do it’s violence off camera while still filling the media with lies of violent protesters.
Showing people what organized physical resistance actually looks like gives people that are already on the streets hope and solidarity. I know. I’ve experienced it.
Do you think an organized group of people physically protecting a Grandma from state violence is any less effective in radicalizing people?
Yes. As soon as ICE blood starts spilling onto the streets, you lose the normies real quick. And then the bad guys have justification (in the eyes of some) in hitting back even harder.
Do you think people want to go out and protest when they are surrounded by other people that will stand by and do nothing when they get grabbed?
Ehh I never said do nothing. There’s quite a large gulf between “de-arrest” / “put cones over pepper bombs” and “shooting people”. I do think most people don’t want to go out and protest if it’s really “go out and engage in armed conflict with the state.”
Do you think people want to go out and protest when they are surrounded by other people that will stand by and do nothing when they get grabbed?
You’re conflating violence with resistance. The two are not the same. One could argue one is a subset of the other.
Standing by and doing nothing
Again, that’s not what I’m advocating.
Showing people what organized physical resistance actually looks like gives people that are already on the streets hope and solidarity. I know. I’ve experienced it.
I’m curious. If you don’t mind sharing, where/how did you experience this? What was the resistance?
Military deployments in Portland and Chicago are currently blocked by court order. What we’re currently seeing on the streets is civilian law enforcement with cosplay uniforms.
The numbers of troops called up in Portland and Chicago are low, less than 500 each. This isn’t enough to do any meaningful military occupation. At most it’s to show off, like in the Assault on MacArthur Park.
These reasons are why the public will not condone “self defense violence”. The “invasion” has simply not reached a stage where it’s warranted.
Fascism is Imperialism turned inwards. The US soldiers have been fine with it when we do it to other countries civilians. As long as they believe the narrative and the majority continue to follow orders it won’t matter if a couple Joes have a conscience.
Why do you think Trump wants to bring in military when the police force is more than capable of brutalizing protesters? He wants that complete disconnection from any loyalty to the cities he invades.
I mean, honestly, if you really want to solidify the appearance of “not being a threat” this definitely works well. The problem is that the machine of state violence under fascism does not give a fuck. Non peaceful protest only works when the government has some care in the public response. It is useless if there is not an audience with power to convince of the injustice. Just ask the Palestinians during the Great March of Return (or countless other peaceful means of resistance throughout their history). No one with power gave a single fuck.
Waiting for the CIA to do a false flag event in one of these outfits to ban costumes like this. But I don’t think they care enough. They aren’t afraid of a video of police beating the shit out of a dude in a costume. They already put pepper spray in the air intakes.
Americans need to drop the MLK mindset and go Black Panther Party right fucking now.
Non violence cannot be the only response to further violence.
The point of non-violence isn’t to sway the opinions of ICE or the Trump regime. The purpose of non-violence is to gain and maintain the support of the general public while dismantling the pillars of support for authoritarianism.
As soon as you start mercing people, you lose public support from the normies, and the bad guys get a justification to meet force with even more force. It’s not a winning strategy.
I’m not talking about random mercenary acts. I’m talking about defending yourself and your community from literal military invasion. For some reason self defensive violence is entirely understandable and just to most people. It’s a fundamental part of any justice system. Unless that self defensive violence is done in return to unjust state violence.
Everyone was rightfully ready to cheer on the Ukrainian civilians taking up arms against the Russian invasion. But, suddenly, when it’s happening here, that’s unjustifiable.
“Convincing the normies” won’t matter when you’re sitting in a labor camp.
-Malcolm X
Notice I said nothing about what is just or unjust. I’m strictly talking tactics. And at this moment in the Trump regime’s authoritarian breakthrough, non-violence is still our best bet. History of these sorts of breakthroughs shows that authoritarian regimes are best countered by broad-based public resistance. And yes, that means from normies.
As soon as you start shooting back, you yield the upper hand to ICE and the regime’s goons. They know how to deal with violence… It is their language. What they don’t know how to deal with is a pissed-off grandma in a chicken costume with the full moral backing of 70% of the population.
The grandma will still die from breathing in the pepper spray they put in the air intake of the suite. You’re saying deaths of innocent protesters are worth it? I’m sorry, but have you been to a protest where ICE gets violent? Are you waiting until someone is killed? Because that’s already happened.
We should remain nonviolent in the face of our allies being abducted, tortured, and killed? Where is the line for you? Honestly?
Because I’m not saying this to get people to go do random acts of violence against ICE. I’m saying this so that people like you realize that the preparation for a resistance is needed NOW. You don’t just go out and be violent. That’s not at all what the Black Panther Party was doing. And honestly, that preparation is likely far too late even now.
When ICE commits violence against the unarmed grandma in the chicken suit, they radicalize ten more grandmas—and solidify the position of the normies against ICE.
And anyone who shows up to a protest is making their own risk assessment. Some protests are the strollers and marches type, and that’s a pretty low risk level. Some protests are spicier, and they tend to draw a different crowd with a different risk tolerance.
And yes, I’m saying we should remain non-violent in the face of ICE’s atrocities, because that is the best tactic for gaining and retaining the wide-spread support necessary to defeat them.
I think the part you’re missing is what that support gets us. When there’s wide-spread support for those opposing ICE, that gives us more of an ability (and the people power) to attack the pillars of support that prop up the authoritarian regime.
When ICE shows up. There are no nonviolent protest. Right now the violence is just in one direction.
Do you think an organized group of people physically protecting a Grandma from state violence is any less effective in radicalizing people? I’d argue it’s MORE effective. Do you think people want to go out and protest when they are surrounded by other people that will stand by and do nothing when they get grabbed?
All nonviolence is doing is allowing ICE to do their true violence in private. We don’t resist so they take someone away and do their violence off camera. They take their children away. They put them into camps and brutalize them. They kill them in a means that is not public or passed off to another country to do it for them.
Does resisting increase the risk of a lethal act at that time? Yes. But lethal acts are already happening. Right now they’re just happening off camera and “a man found dead in ICE detention” is the story.
Standing by and doing nothing is not reducing harm and it’s not helping radicalize people. It’s just allowing the state to do it’s violence off camera while still filling the media with lies of violent protesters.
Showing people what organized physical resistance actually looks like gives people that are already on the streets hope and solidarity. I know. I’ve experienced it.
Yes. As soon as ICE blood starts spilling onto the streets, you lose the normies real quick. And then the bad guys have justification (in the eyes of some) in hitting back even harder.
Ehh I never said do nothing. There’s quite a large gulf between “de-arrest” / “put cones over pepper bombs” and “shooting people”. I do think most people don’t want to go out and protest if it’s really “go out and engage in armed conflict with the state.”
You’re conflating violence with resistance. The two are not the same. One could argue one is a subset of the other.
Again, that’s not what I’m advocating.
I’m curious. If you don’t mind sharing, where/how did you experience this? What was the resistance?
Military deployments in Portland and Chicago are currently blocked by court order. What we’re currently seeing on the streets is civilian law enforcement with cosplay uniforms.
The numbers of troops called up in Portland and Chicago are low, less than 500 each. This isn’t enough to do any meaningful military occupation. At most it’s to show off, like in the Assault on MacArthur Park.
These reasons are why the public will not condone “self defense violence”. The “invasion” has simply not reached a stage where it’s warranted.
Trump might not have a conscience but certainly at least some of the soldiers who were ordered there will.
Fascism is Imperialism turned inwards. The US soldiers have been fine with it when we do it to other countries civilians. As long as they believe the narrative and the majority continue to follow orders it won’t matter if a couple Joes have a conscience.
Why do you think Trump wants to bring in military when the police force is more than capable of brutalizing protesters? He wants that complete disconnection from any loyalty to the cities he invades.
You’re kidding, right?
American police definitely do not have any loyalty to ‘their’ cities.
They do. Just not to the people of the city. There is still a conflict of power going on.