One of the problems that’s literally never mentioned is that growing produce for humans can either depend on artificial fertilizers from fossil fuels or natural fertilizer from animals. Less animal production for meat, while a very good idea on so many levels, presents a generalized fertility problem.
This is the “manure argument”, and it is mentioned, typically by the Big Meat lobby.
While the argument has merit in principle, it neglects the issue of scale. The amount of manure produced by a meat industry of a scale needed to feed billions of omnivorous humans is massively excessive to any possible needs in terms of crop fertilizer. The vast majority of that sh*t ends up in the environment, completely untreated. So, not only does it function as a pathogen that leads to overuse of antibiotics and thus pandemics, it also “fertilizes” rivers and groundwater with nitrate pollution that kills off everything that was there already.
The issue is not just about distribution, it is about type.
The amount of manure produced by a meat industry of a scale needed to feed billions of omnivorous humans is massively excessive to any possible needs in terms of crop fertilizer.
This is true.
Edit to be more clear and add some nuance because re-reading everything I can see how you interpreted my comment the way you did.
The context was essentially replacing animal feed with human food, in whole or in part. I did say “less animal production” but to try to be clear - I am completely discounting industrialized production and CAFOs. I do not consider them legitimate methods. That is really the source of your pollution and excess. I didn’t specify this and I should have.
We can argue that there is some large reduction in animal production where we can find a balance but the debate is always one or the other and dominated by militant vegans who want fresh veggies and NO animal production. Currently that’s not possible.
But another issue that relates to CAFOs is that so much of the manure is not available for composting. We’re not set up for that because there are so many fewer organic operations. So if you reduce animal production across the board without regard to type of operation we absolutely will see a fertility deficit.
It’s not possible without trying. There are other ways to move organic matter from from freshly dead to soil without the accelerated processes of digestion through some warm blooded animal’s intestines.
The problem is the lack of imagination and knowledge on the part of the “organic” types.
And if you don’t understand the laws of physics and how there’s no free energy, no magical cycles of C, N, P, K, S and others, let me know.
The problem is the lack of imagination and knowledge on the part of the “organic” types.
Rest assured, farmers in general are not actually lacking in imagination or knowledge.
And if you don’t understand the laws of physics and how there’s no free energy, no magical cycles of C, N, P, K, S and others, let me know.
Absolutely, please regale us with your outstanding wisdom and intelligence. Do tell us how we can “move organic matter from freshly dead to soil”. I’m not sure what that means but perhaps you can educate us.
Rest assured, farmers in general are not actually lacking in imagination or knowledge.
Yes, they are.
Absolutely, please regale us with your outstanding wisdom and intelligence. Do tell us how we can “move organic matter from freshly dead to soil”. I’m not sure what that means but perhaps you can educate us.
This exactly what I mean. You’re looking for education on some random website in a comment when you should be taking years of education on chemistry, biochemistry, soil sciences, biology, microbiology, ecology and many more.
No they aren’t. That’s just your arrogance and prejudice.
You’re looking for education on some random website in a comment
LOL. Rest assured I did not think you were capable of providing such an education.
Did you know for example, that it’s increasingly common for farmers to not just have a degree in agronomy but also subjects like chemistry soil science, etc? It’s really a requirement if you want to work for any of the larger farming operations. Now my background is in tech, specifically software engineering. My partner has a PhD in biochemistry. A neighboring fruit guy has a PhD in biology and two other farmers I know have advanced degrees in ecology.
But of course you know better and what would I know, I’m just a stupid ignorant farmer.
You don’t get knowledge from standing the shadow of someone. I actually publish in agronomic journals with my PhD and I’ve been through all of your feelings a long time ago. I’ve taught to the farmers you’re picturing of as “knowledgeable”.
Software or not, you should already be aware that those who practice and run a business do not have time to learn or experiment.
And no, nobody could provide that kind of education on Lemmy.
This is the “manure argument”, and it is mentioned, typically by the Big Meat lobby.
While the argument has merit in principle, it neglects the issue of scale. The amount of manure produced by a meat industry of a scale needed to feed billions of omnivorous humans is massively excessive to any possible needs in terms of crop fertilizer. The vast majority of that sh*t ends up in the environment, completely untreated. So, not only does it function as a pathogen that leads to overuse of antibiotics and thus pandemics, it also “fertilizes” rivers and groundwater with nitrate pollution that kills off everything that was there already.
The issue is not just about distribution, it is about type.
This is true.
Edit to be more clear and add some nuance because re-reading everything I can see how you interpreted my comment the way you did.
The context was essentially replacing animal feed with human food, in whole or in part. I did say “less animal production” but to try to be clear - I am completely discounting industrialized production and CAFOs. I do not consider them legitimate methods. That is really the source of your pollution and excess. I didn’t specify this and I should have.
We can argue that there is some large reduction in animal production where we can find a balance but the debate is always one or the other and dominated by militant vegans who want fresh veggies and NO animal production. Currently that’s not possible.
But another issue that relates to CAFOs is that so much of the manure is not available for composting. We’re not set up for that because there are so many fewer organic operations. So if you reduce animal production across the board without regard to type of operation we absolutely will see a fertility deficit.
It’s not possible without trying. There are other ways to move organic matter from from freshly dead to soil without the accelerated processes of digestion through some warm blooded animal’s intestines.
The problem is the lack of imagination and knowledge on the part of the “organic” types.
And if you don’t understand the laws of physics and how there’s no free energy, no magical cycles of C, N, P, K, S and others, let me know.
Rest assured, farmers in general are not actually lacking in imagination or knowledge.
Absolutely, please regale us with your outstanding wisdom and intelligence. Do tell us how we can “move organic matter from freshly dead to soil”. I’m not sure what that means but perhaps you can educate us.
Yes, they are.
This exactly what I mean. You’re looking for education on some random website in a comment when you should be taking years of education on chemistry, biochemistry, soil sciences, biology, microbiology, ecology and many more.
No they aren’t. That’s just your arrogance and prejudice.
LOL. Rest assured I did not think you were capable of providing such an education.
Did you know for example, that it’s increasingly common for farmers to not just have a degree in agronomy but also subjects like chemistry soil science, etc? It’s really a requirement if you want to work for any of the larger farming operations. Now my background is in tech, specifically software engineering. My partner has a PhD in biochemistry. A neighboring fruit guy has a PhD in biology and two other farmers I know have advanced degrees in ecology.
But of course you know better and what would I know, I’m just a stupid ignorant farmer.
You don’t get knowledge from standing the shadow of someone. I actually publish in agronomic journals with my PhD and I’ve been through all of your feelings a long time ago. I’ve taught to the farmers you’re picturing of as “knowledgeable”.
Software or not, you should already be aware that those who practice and run a business do not have time to learn or experiment.
And no, nobody could provide that kind of education on Lemmy.
"Well actshuaaally…
Hurburdur dur durrrr"
Go ask your friends for courses and books. Let me know when you’re ready to discuss papers on systems.