Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity (“I’m just trying to have a debate”), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter.
In this case I’ve only asked you for evidence of one claim once, and then referred back to you not providing it. I’m not after more evidence, and I’m not attempting to badger you into giving me evidence, I’m just trying to get you to stop gaslighting me. Although I’ll happily concede that probably wasn’t you trying to gaslight me just now since sealioning is kinda a weird one (and you’re unfamiliar with it). My bad there.
I’m not even gaslighting you. You were giving OP shit for a post that was clearly meant to be humorous, and you were making blanket statements about tarot which it looks like you’ve walked back in other conversations on this thread.
Where I initially commented, someone had told you that some people use tarot as a psychological tool similar to jungian archetypes and shadow work, and distinguished from religion. You said that you recognize them as distinct concepts, and then doubled down on saying tarot is a religious/spiritual practice.
I pointed out the apparent self-contradiction, although at this point it looks more like it was one step in the process of realizing that tarot has broader use than being limited to just spiritual or religious contexts. But I haven’t seen you say anywhere that you’ve learned something and changed your opinion, and now recognize the secular usage if tarot. It seems like you’ve instead pretended that that was your opinion from the start, as if your initial insistence that it’s religious was just a fluke.
But I haven’t seen you say anywhere that you’ve learned something and changed your opinion, and now recognize the secular usage if tarot.
That’s because I haven’t changed my opinion - I never thought tarot was a singularly religious act in the first place which I made clear at least an hour before you joined in to accuse me of doing exactly that
: https://lemmy.world/comment/22028428 . I’ve never made any claim even presenting it like that besides describing Tarot as religious - which is not wrong, many people do consider Tarot as an aspect of their religion, and being this is an occult community it’s not unfair for me to have chosen to primarily characterize it as such. And setting that aside, the content of my initial message would not have changed had I said:
Maybe… you should say that to your friend, instead of using your shared religious secular beliefs that convince them to stay in a shitty relationship…?
This is why I’ve repeatedly said you’ve misunderstood me - I have never claimed that I was unaware of a secular use of Tarot, nor have I attacked tarot, nor have I asserted that tarot is singularly religious. I do not know how you arrived at that conclusion, even. I asked for someone’s opinion on why they don’t consider it religious, and I sincerely wanted to know what they thought. What I got was:
Jungian archetypes and shadow work reflection prompts.
Which isn’t an explanation about why they don’t consider it a religious act, it’s a set of concepts that are present in a whole host of things. I then said I was confused, because I was, since they didn’t even claim that was why they don’t consider Tarot religious, they just asserted it and then told me I was taking it too seriously. And you’ve done nothing but attack me for that confusion, now even saying that was me “doubling down on tarot as a religious/spiritual practice” which, no, it wasn’t.
You jumped in with your own assumptions about what I was saying and started attacking me. And yes, you have openly been gaslighting me: Again, I never said I was done with this conversation, I never attacked Tarot, I was never accused by anyone else of attacking other people using DARVO techniques (or otherwise?), your sources do not show that happening and I’ve never claimed that Tarot is a solely religious idea. Those are all things you’ve asserted which are false, and which fit into any of the common definitions of gaslighting.
Even going back to the top level comment, what makes you think OP was trying to convince their friend to stay in a shitty relationship? It clearly says “Dump him.”
Earlier I was getting pretty annoyed with you, but now I’m starting to see that you might be on the spectrum. It seems you are/were genuinely confused, so I take back what I said about you being a narcissist and using DARVO. You’re probably not doing it on purpose.
I’m not here to torment you, but you need to get over this victim complex that you have. You’ve clearly blown this whole thing beyond proportion by taking the post too seriously from the start, and when people tried to point out the error of your perception you got really defensive. You don’t seem to understand, and I’m not gonna try to explain it to you anymore. Just take a few deep breaths and try to have a nice day
Your accusations have been stressful enough I threw up. You’ve done nothing but spend hours bullying, insulting and in your words tormenting me over an assumption you made I can prove was wrong. You have not taken back what you said, the comments where you accuse me of said heinous shit, where you gaslight me, where you insult me; they’re all still right there. You’ve haven’t even apologized for doing this to me.
I explained my position to a large number of people, many of whom insulted me on the basis of a misinterpretation, which is a reasonable thing to do when one is being insulted and misinterpreted. You thought someone was doing something wrong, and because of that it justified your being unbelievably horrible to someone else. At any point you could have stopped and considered what I was saying with a shred of decency, but you didn’t.
I was literally a victim - at your hands, and of your reflexive cruelty. You don’t get to walk away from this accusing me of a victim complex and feeling like you didn’t do anything wrong, that’s victim blaming. And now you’ve buried your non-apology 27 comments deep where nobody will see it, so you don’t have to admit that you did an incredibly shitty thing.
(and as a final note, who in the hell thinks that the person posting a meme is the person that created the meme? Lemmy barely has OC, I should know, and it’s fucking awful you’re trying to spin this as you defending OP to justify how horrible you’ve been to me)
I didn’t mean to stress you out that bad, but I wasn’t “going on the attack” like you characterize me as. You were overreacting from the start, and things escalated from there. If I had known you weren’t trying to be a jerk then I wouldn’t have been so harsh.
If that many people misunderstand or “misinterpret” what you’re trying to say, then maybe it’s an opportunity to do some self-reflection and try to understand what they’re saying. Because the way you initially came off, did not align with what you later explained was your initial intent.
If I had realized sooner that you were on the spectrum, I wouldn’t have argued as much because I would have seen that it was primarily a miscommunication. I thought you were being a jerk, so I was dishing it back to you. I didn’t realize until later that your internal logic made sense to you in a way that didn’t quite come across as clearly as it probably seemed to you.
I understand how it’s frustrating to try to communicate something that makes sense to you and have it not be understood by pretty much anybody. I’m all too familiar with that pattern in my own life, which is why people often ask me if I’m on the spectrum. I think I am, but I don’t have a diagnosis.
Anyway, it’s been a painful process, and I’m still not well-adjusted, but one thing I’ve heard consistently from people is that I’m still responsible for how I come across to other people, even if how I come across is consistently different from the way that I intend, and even though I find it near impossible to comprehend the kinds of social norms that seem intuitive to most people. I can never predict how I’ll come across, so I don’t know how that’s supposed to be my responsibility, but that’s how neurotypicals tend to view things. To me it seems like that’s their perception, so it should be their responsibility, but when they all share the same or similar perceptions due to their normative perspective, then suddenly I become the one that’s easy to single out and blame for it. And while it’s been painful and frustrating to accept, it comes with more inner peace than trying to go against it. Because unfortunately, we live in a neurotypical-dominated society and how neurotypicals decide to perceive us is what defines who we are from their perspective.
I can think of myself however I want, and at the end of the day only I know my own internal life, but if the majority of society decides I’m annoying or abrasive, then I can’t stop them from having that opinion, spreading it around, and ostracizing me. So even though I find it impossible to conform to their norms, it’s in my interest to do so, simply from a survival standpoint. If I want to have friends, I need to be likeable, and being neurodivergent doesn’t change that.
That all being said, if it really affects you that much, to the point where you would throw up from the stress of an argument with a stranger on the internet, then maybe you should take a break from it. Do something that brings you peace.
A volley of accusations doesn’t bring peace. That’s how things escalate. And while there’s relative safety, as these are just words, it can be stressful. I’ve had arguments with trolls that had me apoplectic before I remembered that it wasn’t worth my peace of mind.
If you need an apology, then I’m sorry you threw up. But that comes with the caveat that you can’t expect the world to apologize to you every time you’re misunderstood. It’s harsh, but it typically doesn’t happen that way. The only reason I’ve changed my attitude towards you is because I realized the underlying miscommunication, that you’re neurodivergent, and I only understood that because I am too.
So I’m taking responsibility for my part in it now, but you have to realize that you have a responsibility in it too. I was wrong when I thought you were a narcissist, because I misidentified the pattern. Narcissists don’t take responsibility for their part, and they misapply rules to others while carving out special exceptions for themselves. But not everyone who does those things is a narcissist, there are other explanations for those patterns, so it was hasty for me to jump to that conclusion. If that’s what stressed you out so bad, I’m sorry.
Sealioning means to ignore all evidence while repeatedly demanding evidence in a badgering sort of way, does it not?
Not quite:
In this case I’ve only asked you for evidence of one claim once, and then referred back to you not providing it. I’m not after more evidence, and I’m not attempting to badger you into giving me evidence, I’m just trying to get you to stop gaslighting me. Although I’ll happily concede that probably wasn’t you trying to gaslight me just now since sealioning is kinda a weird one (and you’re unfamiliar with it). My bad there.
I’m not even gaslighting you. You were giving OP shit for a post that was clearly meant to be humorous, and you were making blanket statements about tarot which it looks like you’ve walked back in other conversations on this thread.
Where I initially commented, someone had told you that some people use tarot as a psychological tool similar to jungian archetypes and shadow work, and distinguished from religion. You said that you recognize them as distinct concepts, and then doubled down on saying tarot is a religious/spiritual practice.
I pointed out the apparent self-contradiction, although at this point it looks more like it was one step in the process of realizing that tarot has broader use than being limited to just spiritual or religious contexts. But I haven’t seen you say anywhere that you’ve learned something and changed your opinion, and now recognize the secular usage if tarot. It seems like you’ve instead pretended that that was your opinion from the start, as if your initial insistence that it’s religious was just a fluke.
That’s because I haven’t changed my opinion - I never thought tarot was a singularly religious act in the first place which I made clear at least an hour before you joined in to accuse me of doing exactly that : https://lemmy.world/comment/22028428 . I’ve never made any claim even presenting it like that besides describing Tarot as religious - which is not wrong, many people do consider Tarot as an aspect of their religion, and being this is an occult community it’s not unfair for me to have chosen to primarily characterize it as such. And setting that aside, the content of my initial message would not have changed had I said:
This is why I’ve repeatedly said you’ve misunderstood me - I have never claimed that I was unaware of a secular use of Tarot, nor have I attacked tarot, nor have I asserted that tarot is singularly religious. I do not know how you arrived at that conclusion, even. I asked for someone’s opinion on why they don’t consider it religious, and I sincerely wanted to know what they thought. What I got was:
Which isn’t an explanation about why they don’t consider it a religious act, it’s a set of concepts that are present in a whole host of things. I then said I was confused, because I was, since they didn’t even claim that was why they don’t consider Tarot religious, they just asserted it and then told me I was taking it too seriously. And you’ve done nothing but attack me for that confusion, now even saying that was me “doubling down on tarot as a religious/spiritual practice” which, no, it wasn’t.
You jumped in with your own assumptions about what I was saying and started attacking me. And yes, you have openly been gaslighting me: Again, I never said I was done with this conversation, I never attacked Tarot, I was never accused by anyone else of attacking other people using DARVO techniques (or otherwise?), your sources do not show that happening and I’ve never claimed that Tarot is a solely religious idea. Those are all things you’ve asserted which are false, and which fit into any of the common definitions of gaslighting.
Even going back to the top level comment, what makes you think OP was trying to convince their friend to stay in a shitty relationship? It clearly says “Dump him.”
Earlier I was getting pretty annoyed with you, but now I’m starting to see that you might be on the spectrum. It seems you are/were genuinely confused, so I take back what I said about you being a narcissist and using DARVO. You’re probably not doing it on purpose.
I’m not here to torment you, but you need to get over this victim complex that you have. You’ve clearly blown this whole thing beyond proportion by taking the post too seriously from the start, and when people tried to point out the error of your perception you got really defensive. You don’t seem to understand, and I’m not gonna try to explain it to you anymore. Just take a few deep breaths and try to have a nice day
Yes I’m on the spectrum, and I’m sorry but no:
Your accusations have been stressful enough I threw up. You’ve done nothing but spend hours bullying, insulting and in your words tormenting me over an assumption you made I can prove was wrong. You have not taken back what you said, the comments where you accuse me of said heinous shit, where you gaslight me, where you insult me; they’re all still right there. You’ve haven’t even apologized for doing this to me.
I explained my position to a large number of people, many of whom insulted me on the basis of a misinterpretation, which is a reasonable thing to do when one is being insulted and misinterpreted. You thought someone was doing something wrong, and because of that it justified your being unbelievably horrible to someone else. At any point you could have stopped and considered what I was saying with a shred of decency, but you didn’t.
I was literally a victim - at your hands, and of your reflexive cruelty. You don’t get to walk away from this accusing me of a victim complex and feeling like you didn’t do anything wrong, that’s victim blaming. And now you’ve buried your non-apology 27 comments deep where nobody will see it, so you don’t have to admit that you did an incredibly shitty thing.
(and as a final note, who in the hell thinks that the person posting a meme is the person that created the meme? Lemmy barely has OC, I should know, and it’s fucking awful you’re trying to spin this as you defending OP to justify how horrible you’ve been to me)
I didn’t mean to stress you out that bad, but I wasn’t “going on the attack” like you characterize me as. You were overreacting from the start, and things escalated from there. If I had known you weren’t trying to be a jerk then I wouldn’t have been so harsh.
If that many people misunderstand or “misinterpret” what you’re trying to say, then maybe it’s an opportunity to do some self-reflection and try to understand what they’re saying. Because the way you initially came off, did not align with what you later explained was your initial intent.
If I had realized sooner that you were on the spectrum, I wouldn’t have argued as much because I would have seen that it was primarily a miscommunication. I thought you were being a jerk, so I was dishing it back to you. I didn’t realize until later that your internal logic made sense to you in a way that didn’t quite come across as clearly as it probably seemed to you.
I understand how it’s frustrating to try to communicate something that makes sense to you and have it not be understood by pretty much anybody. I’m all too familiar with that pattern in my own life, which is why people often ask me if I’m on the spectrum. I think I am, but I don’t have a diagnosis.
Anyway, it’s been a painful process, and I’m still not well-adjusted, but one thing I’ve heard consistently from people is that I’m still responsible for how I come across to other people, even if how I come across is consistently different from the way that I intend, and even though I find it near impossible to comprehend the kinds of social norms that seem intuitive to most people. I can never predict how I’ll come across, so I don’t know how that’s supposed to be my responsibility, but that’s how neurotypicals tend to view things. To me it seems like that’s their perception, so it should be their responsibility, but when they all share the same or similar perceptions due to their normative perspective, then suddenly I become the one that’s easy to single out and blame for it. And while it’s been painful and frustrating to accept, it comes with more inner peace than trying to go against it. Because unfortunately, we live in a neurotypical-dominated society and how neurotypicals decide to perceive us is what defines who we are from their perspective.
I can think of myself however I want, and at the end of the day only I know my own internal life, but if the majority of society decides I’m annoying or abrasive, then I can’t stop them from having that opinion, spreading it around, and ostracizing me. So even though I find it impossible to conform to their norms, it’s in my interest to do so, simply from a survival standpoint. If I want to have friends, I need to be likeable, and being neurodivergent doesn’t change that.
That all being said, if it really affects you that much, to the point where you would throw up from the stress of an argument with a stranger on the internet, then maybe you should take a break from it. Do something that brings you peace.
A volley of accusations doesn’t bring peace. That’s how things escalate. And while there’s relative safety, as these are just words, it can be stressful. I’ve had arguments with trolls that had me apoplectic before I remembered that it wasn’t worth my peace of mind.
If you need an apology, then I’m sorry you threw up. But that comes with the caveat that you can’t expect the world to apologize to you every time you’re misunderstood. It’s harsh, but it typically doesn’t happen that way. The only reason I’ve changed my attitude towards you is because I realized the underlying miscommunication, that you’re neurodivergent, and I only understood that because I am too.
So I’m taking responsibility for my part in it now, but you have to realize that you have a responsibility in it too. I was wrong when I thought you were a narcissist, because I misidentified the pattern. Narcissists don’t take responsibility for their part, and they misapply rules to others while carving out special exceptions for themselves. But not everyone who does those things is a narcissist, there are other explanations for those patterns, so it was hasty for me to jump to that conclusion. If that’s what stressed you out so bad, I’m sorry.