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- cross-posted to:
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I deployed a self-hosted matrix chat server recently (synapse + element call) for my probably-soon-to-be discord refugee group. I know it isn’t a 1:1 replacement for the average discord user, but honestly I’m really happy with it. It does the important stuff that we care about (private chat rooms and video calls). My only complaint is that it was an absolute pain in the ass to configure, lol.
I consider the simplicity of the available apps to actually be a good thing. We had moved to discord a few years back from google chat. After that, a bunch of people didn’t interact in chat a whole lot because of what a busy pain in the ass the discord UX is. Several users have also consistently had major breaking issues with the discord app over the years. The element X app doesn’t do a whole lot, but it does work, so it’s an improvement for those people.
Hopefully the recent interest in matrix results in it becoming a fully-featured discord alternative.
How hard was it for your users to connect? Were the configuration troubles just on your end? I am going to try to setup a home server, but some of my friends might not be willing to join if it is too much work
It’s a piece of cake for end users. It makes me really jealous lol. Just keep in mind that I’m making that claim based on using the ansible playbook that deploys synapse + element call and an element web UI. Some of our users like to use some combination of a web, desktop and mobile app. So having that come setup after deploying the playbook was really nice. The hard part for end users (for us at least since we’re running a private, defederated server) is pointing the client to the right URL. I made a PDF with a bunch of step by step instructions for how people can login with all of the apps.
That ansible playbook did make deployment much easier, but it’s still a ton of reading because of what a complex stack of tech is actually required to run a matrix chat server. I had originally tried doing it with a bigass docker compose file, and manually configuring all the reverse proxies. After two days of failing to get that working, I went with the playbook. It’s much easier than doing it completely DIY.
The only real difficulty I foresee with users down the line is what happens when people lose their recovery keys. Obviously there’s ways to log back in, but people probably won’t appreciate losing access to chat history. We’ll see how it goes, but generally the onboarding process is really easy. And it can be made easier by the fact that admins can just create users, so the whole registration process is optional.
The only real difficulty I foresee with users down the line is what happens when people lose their recovery keys.
Yes, the possibility of someone losing their recovery codes is a risk shared by practically all e2ee systems, authenticators, etc. (Have you backed up your Steam Guard recovery codes?) When a user is the only one with access to their secrets, they are also the only one who can be responsible for them.
This is part of why I suggested in my top-level comment that admins coming from Discord leave end-to-end encryption disabled when creating their first Matrix rooms. This keeps things simpler while their users get acquainted with Matrix, and reduces the consequences if someone loses their account recovery key. The point-to-point HTTPS encryption between client and server will still be in place, providing the same level of protection that Discord offers. End-to-end encryption can always be added to a room later, once everyone is familiar with the new environment.
This did not inspire confidence in using matrix as a valid alternative.
I don’t think it’s meant to inspire confidence.
I think it’s meant to moderate expectations, and give a peek into the current state of an evolving system.
The reason no other alternative has taken off is that there is no other alternative. I hate Discord too, but there just isn’t a drop-in replacement.
Some of the key features expected by Discord users have yet to be prioritised (game streaming, push-to-talk, voice channels, custom emoji, extensible presence, richer hierarchical moderation, etc)
Not even push to talk!? What the fuq?
What does it have? Those are some pretty major features.
End to end encrypted chat, with the possibility to host your own instance, federated or not, and voice / video calls with screensharing. However, bandwidth costs money, accordingly the free Matrix servers (remember: Discord was never free, you just paid with your data) can not provide the level of video streams that a commercial provider with a lot of money to throw at the problem can.
Also, federation of chat rooms.
Matrix is a mature chat client for secure communications, and more than that. But it is not aimed at gamers, it is not necessarily (as) trivial to use, and streaming gamers are definitely not the target group. So yeah, it’s not an alternative for a lot of what users seek from Discord, but it’s still a really good tool.
Complaining that matrix doesn’t have X & Y features of Discord is like complaining that you can’t use a Hammer to bake a cake. It’s designed for a different job :)
Basically fuck and all. It’s a barely functional corporate chat room with a mosh pit of a call feature that only sorta works. Matrix is about as ready for daily driving as Wayland was 4 years ago.
It’s useable, but I less you have your head so deep in the sand that your finding dune worms. It’s impossible to argue it’s useable for anyone but the most die hard foss folk who would rather mutilate themselves then use anything closed source.
The funny thing is it really hasn’t improved since the pandemic, the last time I really evaluated element. What the 100 employees of element have been doing for the last 6 years… I have no idea
Basically working on all the matrix 2.0 stuff, which hasn’t landed yet, although it’s “almost done” now apparently.
Said matrix 2.0 stuff fixes encryption (i.e, makes it seamless like signal), proper voice and video chat and adds sliding sync which makes everything much faster
I tried to look this up to see what its status was. It looks like 2.0 was out (or mostly out) in 2024. Element X talks about using some of the features discussed in one of the Matrix 2.0 blogs, but I dont see explicit version numbers listed anywhere. For example, that sliding sync you mentioned is listed as implemented in the Element X client
It’s kind of confusing but: basically some matrix 2.0 features are implemented in an non-finished state by element X (and synapse) as a testbed for those features, but the actual features aren’t finalised or implemented in most clients. The MSC’s (matrix spec changes) aren’t merged, so clients won’t want to implement it.
2/4 of the MSC’s required for 2.0 are merged as of now, and the other two are close.
2024 was when those features began to be ready to be beta tested, but it takes a long time to get a protocol finalised, since it can’t be easily changed once done.
Think of it like a wayland protocol that isn’t merged, but a desktop, say kde, has an implementation already.
Thanks for the correction. I guess watching the appropriate MSC page would be a good way to check in on the status from time to time? Or the blog once it’s all done I guess.
push-to-talk
That is a must-have not just for me, but any other fucker in the channel who doesn’t want to be muted.
I don’t want to hear the fuckin darth vader breathing, dorito crunching, parents arguing, dog barking bullshit on the other end of the mic.
My private groups solved this by using Matrix for text chat and Mumble for voice. It has push-to-talk and outstanding sound quality. Hosted Mumble servers are cheap, and self-hosting is pretty easy.
When Element Call (MatrixRTC) eventually leaves beta, we might switch to that, but it’s hard to beat Mumble for audio.
Unless the servers can have separate channels and interface like slack or discord then it’s not going to work for most people. Correct me if they have implemented this. I tried using it for quite a while and it was just clumsy. Most people want/need a server with channels that can have categories
This is my experience with it so far. The bones are there but the current clients are all far from a replacement.
I feel like cinny feels the most like discord.
Yeah this one seems like the one to keep an eye on, but seems like there’s no equivalent mobile client yet, and it’s still missing some key features.
I’m holding out for a clear winner that will surpass discord. It can’t miss core features, be difficult to install, or use.
I may have to pick one before that happens, but I’m fine waiting to see how Discord responds to the backlash.
They’ve doubled down already, I can’t trust them if their shareholders are this dumb.
They do have this, unless I’m not understanding. I run a space (same as discords servers) and in there I have channels that are just like discord’s.
What client are you using? I set up a space a while back but have no way of putting my channels into categories so it’s all alphabetic and clumsy. It was less than ideal
If you want to order a list that would otherwise be alphabetical, use numbers before the name. I do that for Steam categories, as well as other places like dropdown lists where I can control the content of the list but not the ordering of its display.
- 01 - Horror
- 02 - Loved
- 03 - Good
- 04 - Alright
- 05 - Needs more play
- 06 - Unplayed
- 98 - Disliked
- 99 - Hated
Doing this has helped me stay sane in some situations!
You can nest spaces.
A space is just a group of channels. So to get groups of channels inside the space, you just create “spaces” inside the space.
This is how my discord servers show up in my matrix accounts since I use discord via a bridge.
Afaik element has it as a semi-hidden option and cinny has it by default
Its cinny.in, not .im
Just tried and failed to install cinny flatpak. Something about an error dispatching to Wayland display. The screenshot looks nice though
Something about an error dispatching to Wayland display.
Wierd, you can use it in the web browser though.
Some things to keep in mind if you’re getting started with Matrix after having been on Discord:
End-to-end encryption is available, but you might want to disable it when you create a room. This will help keep things simple for your users as they get familiar with Matrix. Connections between client and server will still be encrypted using HTTPS, which is the same level of encryption that Discord has. (And if it’s a public room, e2ee wouldn’t have any value anyway.) You can always add end-to-end encryption to your rooms later.
A few terms used on Discord are different in the Matrix ecosystem…
Discord term Matrix term channel room server space discord.com homeserver (there are many) If you don’t like the first Matrix client you try, consider trying others. Much like email clients, the features and user interface styles vary. The blog post mentions Cinny and Commet. Element X is probably the simplest mobile client with Matrix’s recent fast-startup feature (though it’s still catching up on other features). More clients are listed here.
Voice and video chat in Matrix are currently available only on some clients, and it’s done by integrating Jitsi. Not ideal, but still useful for at least some use cases. A better system is in development. Here’s a preview of it: https://call.element.io/
Matrix.org is by far the largest public homeserver. It’s convenient in that anyone can get an account without having to run their own homeserver, but it can also suffer slowdowns when an influx of users are arriving all at once, such as right now. You can choose to be patient, or look for a different public homeserver, or pay for a homeserver host, or (if you have the means) self-host.
Matrix.org and some other public homeservers ask for an email address when you sign up, so that they have a way to recover your account if you forget your password. It’s not required by The Matrix protocol, though, and some servers might allow new accounts with no contact info at all. I don’t know which ones; you’ll have to hunt for one (or run your own) if that’s what you want.
The blog post mentions account portability, which is not yet available in Matrix. This means that your user ID (@user:example.com) is currently tied to the homeserver where you create it (example.com). If you decide to switch to an account on another homeserver, you’ll have to get re-invited into any private chats you had joined with the old account. However, the rooms you create on your original homeserver are not tied to that server. So long as at least one room member is on another homeserver, the room will carry on (with its original ID) even if its original homeserver vanishes. This means, for example, that you could create a room on matrix.org today, and migrate its admin duties to an account on your own private homeserver that you set up a year from now. (Or even invite all your members to migrate to your private homeserver.)
They just had to invent new terminology. Also it seems their room join links have two different incompatible formats.
They just had to invent new terminology.
Matrix predates Discord, and room in this context predates both Matrix and Discord by about 20-30 years. They didn’t invent it.
Server as used by Discord has always been a conspicuous misuse of the word. It’s no wonder that Matrix chose not to adopt that nonsense.
I’m sorry, but most people are familiar with discord terminology. 20-30 years of history is of no consequence since the popular meaning and understanding of terminology has changed. It would’ve been at least acceptable if they used Server->Room->Channel structure (same as in teamspeak), but this is pure “We reinvent the wheel” syndrome.
This is like going to Britain and being mad they’re using British words for things.
DON’T U KNOW AMERICA IS MORE INFLUENTIAL CHANGE UR WORDS BRITAIN!!!1!
/s
Discord didn’t exist when Matrix was invented, and Teamspeak was never influential enough in the world for its conventions to matter outside of its own user base.
You seem to be overestimating the breadth and importance of your personal experience.
So this should be posted on a subLemmy? Reddit has a large history of terminology. People have adjusted to saying communities fine.
I was using the “room” concept on Q-Link (Quantum Link) 40 years ago. You know, when we had to connect on slow lines. Uphill, both ways.
Honestly I dislike using ‘communities’ there because it creates this forced ambiguity whether you are talking about a literal community of people or the software.
I kind of wish Lemmy called them rooms, or boards, or something like that. Community is a lot of syllables to say and letters to type. Oh well. I’m mainly just glad Lemmy exists.
Haha…
Imagine Commodore 64 users denouncing a useful computing system for calling its own core a kernel instead of a kernal. (Or vice-versa.)
Realistic C-64 users: “It’s a misspelling in an early Commodore document that just carried over.”
Rabid C-64 users: “It’s not a word, it’s an ACRONYM!”
Me: I didn’t even realize it was wrong or knew it was a thing, then or now. TIL I think I saw “kernel” in my mind.
Actually it’s spelled colonel >.>
Thank you for bringing perspective, levity, and humility to an otherwise unfortunate thread. You brought a smile to my face.
