Assuming good faith question: The (false) dichotomy of top/bottom implies a power dynamic in which the bottom is subservient to the top. In reality, it’s often a simple preference and bottoms can domineer just as well as tops. Some prefer it that way. And there’s more than top and bottom. Versatile is the obvious third option (no or changing preference for position) as well as side (prefers non-penetrative sex).
There’s this stereotype (may not be the right word) that extends from the above in that tops are more masculine or powerful by virtue of topping, due to the tie with being dominant. Thus bottoms are more feminine and subservient. All of that is false and represents the gay community in a pretty bad, oversimplified, sexist-somewhere-along-the-line way.
The dom/sub axis is not the same as the top/bottom axis (not really an axis).
It’s not just the top/bottom part that’s problematic, it’s the entire post. The punchline is “Trump and Elon are gay for each other, isn’t that funny?” which centers the idea that it would be bad or wrong for them to be gay for each other, perpetuating the conservative stereotype that there’s something wrong with being gay.
We (gay people) have been pointing out the hypocrisy of homophobes with this sort of joke for ages and will continue to do it because it’s fucking hilarious. We are, in doing so, celebrating that it’s wonderful to be gay and sad that they don’t see that or see there at times in-the-closet-like behavior.
The last thing thing I need is a bunch of word police telling me what I can and cannot say.
You know who IS making it seem like there’s something wrong with being gay? People like you.
lol, the idea that I’ve said there is something wrong with being gay or being called gay is rich.
You’ve said that using jokes about being gay is derogatory. Literally what you are saying is that calling someone gay has negative connotations. It’s bad to be gay.
Let’s try to put this in simple terms:
If one of my many very gay male friends calls someone a fag they are owning the definition of “fag”. If I call myself a dyke I own that word.
If we joke about homophobes being secretly gay we own the language and we erect a shield against that being used in a derogatory manner against us.
You want to police those definitions and tell people what they can and cannot say and can and cannot joke about. You want to take away that shield.
I suspect you are young and did not live through a time when it was absolutely CRITICAL for the queer community writ large to take control of our language. Literally that was the only way we gained power and the only way we made jokes about fags and dykes NOT be derogatory.
Jokes that treat being gay as bad are themselves homophobic, yes - they do not reclaim the word, they perpetuate hatred. You’re welcome to make those jokes - I’m not stopping you by calling out your internalized homophobia.
You can also reclaim any words you want to. Nothing wrong with that.
I disagree. If someone came up to me and said “Buenos dias! Donde estas el bano?” and I was like “that is Spanish, by the way”, I have simply made an observation and have not implied that they aren’t allowed to speak Spanish.
No. “That’s homophobic” and “That’s Spanish” are simply statements of fact. It’s left up to the listener whether they should continue being homophobic or speaking Spanish after it’s been pointed out. It sounds like you’ve chosen to double down on homophobia. Not the choice I’d make, but you do you. Nobodys stopping you. No es mi problema.
If you are going to be basing arguments on statements of fact your comparison should be factual.
One is subjective opinion and one is relatively objective fact ( assuming actual correctness and there not being some weird exception like a subset language or something ).
Unless you are personally the global arbiter of what is and isn’t homophobia, in which case ignore me.
Honestly? You don’t make any sense to me. Hopefully you make sense to you.
It sounds like you’ve chosen to double down on homophobia.
I’m gay. If a black person uses the N word in a joke are you as presumably Not A Black Person going to instantly assume they are racist? Or will you stop to ask why?
I’m not saying a black person can’t be racist or a gay person can’t be offensive to other people or even have latent homophobia. But as simplistic as it sounds that’s literally the basic argument here. Many straight people saying “hey thar that’s homophobic” and one gay person at least saying “nah, that’s funny” and being downvoted to hell.
Sure, but the joke here is turning the dumb jokes of the homophobes against them, right? Calling a homophobe “haha u’r gay n a bottom” is kinda using their homophobia against them, no?
Also, I’m gay myself. If someone said “haha, u like taking it up the ass”, I would be like, “sure I do!”. Say this to a homophobe n they would be incredibly offended. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But sure, I get why the morals of this aren’t so straightforward.
You aren’t wrong. It’s rather philosophical at that point. There’s the “don’t say it because it’s shitty angle” (quasi-mine, though mine was more a explanation vs a held belief) vs the “take it back from them” angle. Both have pros/cons and I’m not going to pretend I have the ‘perfect’ answer. The truth is probably that whichever is more effective/least damaging probably varies by context.
It’s a dissection of why some people in the LGBT community may be offended. If you’re unwilling to try to see the perspective of others and choose to instead reject empathy, that’s a problem for you and the people around you. This internet stranger will continue to have a good day.
Also, clout? On Lemmy? Oh good, I’ve got the support of all 12 of us…
Complicated. Everyone gets to have opinions and some of those opinions are going to offend people. It’s arguably inevitable. The social consequences of having opinions of one kind or another is a pretty standard facet of being human. And validity is non-trivial to define. People have their experiences and they are valid to them but that won’t excuse them from the consequences of having an opinion that is shitty (e.g. “Nazis weren’t that bad” is an opinion that some people honestly hold and also merits a punch in the nose). So my shitty not really answer is “sort of?”.
One caveat (arguably unrelated) is that a lot of people like to state wrong things as opinions (e.g “I think the earth is flat”) and will claim that you can’t refute them because “that’s just my opinion”. It’s not, it’s an objective fact. Those aren’t valid.
Side note: I feel like you’re trying to lead me to something and I approve of your style even though I feel like I’m about to be wrong about something.
I don’t think you see the hypocrisy in your own comments.
I never misunderstood that you’re close minded. I’ll even grant that it can be frustrating to feel like you need a formal course on such things and that it changes entirely too fast and that sometimes it all feels like bullshit (ask me about using the term demisexual wrong* on the internet one time). But the world is made better when we work to understand others, which you’ve demonstrated that as being a non-priority for you.
But the world is made better when we work to understand others, which you’ve demonstrated that as being a non-priority for you.
That’s your interpretation because I don’t agree with you because as a queer person I want to not be told how to use queer words. Thus demonstrating that working to understand others is a non-priority for you.
It’s not since Reddit that I’ve seen anyone engage in such masterful mental gymnastics to completely avoid getting the point. We have at least silver medal material right here.
Just because you don’t get it doesn’t mean I don’t make sense.
No seriously dude. Go talk to some older gay people, particularly men. Try to make some minimal effort to understand why communities who have been beaten to shit by society want to own their language. It’s gotta be something to have never been in that position.
I understand you. Here’s what you don’t understand: queer people are not a monolith. You do not represent all queer people, so stop acting like you do.
I understand that you don’t want to learn. Because that’s what you’re doing. You want to ignore why people don’t want you to say things like that so that the onus isn’t on you to change your behavior because that’s difficult and/or inconvenient. As above, it’s really frustrating to have to learn yet more terms (I still don’t quite get allosexual even though I apparently am that or something along those lines?) and then also to have to break associations with things that haven’t aged well because then you feel obligated to feel bad for making mistakes even if most of the time people don’t care/understand the difficulty.
You want to ignore why people don’t want you to say things like that so that the onus isn’t on you to change your behavior because that’s difficult and/or inconvenient.
You are the one wanting to ignore people here. You are so convinced that only your perspective can be right that you are unwilling to even process the words I write. You don’t have to agree but to willfully ignore that what I’m saying has legitimacy is just disgusting. And I’ve no doubt you don’t even realize your oppression and your own bigotry. Do you?
I’ve read everything you’ve written and it’s all very immature, self-centered, abdication of responsibility paired with conservative level mental gymnastics. You’ve given me no perspective that I, a gay man from a small midwestern town, haven’t personally borne witness to and a little of what I’ve done once upon a time.
I’m not saying your perspective is wrong, I’m saying it’s self centered, lazy, and ultimately detrimental to you and the people around you.
And I’ve no doubt you don’t even realize your oppression and your own bigotry. Do you?
I make no demands upon you so oppression is out. You are free to ignore my observations at any moment and I couldn’t care less. Hell, at this point I’m writing for everyone that’s not you that’s reading this. My statements are based on how your online persona comes across because I don’t know anything about you beyond that to be bigoted against. By definition, I’d have to be prejudiced against you for membership in a particular group to be bigoted and the only one you’ve listed is ‘queer’ and I’m not that self-hating. You are free to be all the negative things that your online persona appears to be. I’m telling you why people may not want to be around you because of your behavior.
Assuming good faith question: The (false) dichotomy of top/bottom implies a power dynamic in which the bottom is subservient to the top. In reality, it’s often a simple preference and bottoms can domineer just as well as tops. Some prefer it that way. And there’s more than top and bottom. Versatile is the obvious third option (no or changing preference for position) as well as side (prefers non-penetrative sex).
There’s this stereotype (may not be the right word) that extends from the above in that tops are more masculine or powerful by virtue of topping, due to the tie with being dominant. Thus bottoms are more feminine and subservient. All of that is false and represents the gay community in a pretty bad, oversimplified, sexist-somewhere-along-the-line way.
The dom/sub axis is not the same as the top/bottom axis (not really an axis).
It’s not just the top/bottom part that’s problematic, it’s the entire post. The punchline is “Trump and Elon are gay for each other, isn’t that funny?” which centers the idea that it would be bad or wrong for them to be gay for each other, perpetuating the conservative stereotype that there’s something wrong with being gay.
Oh FFS.
We (gay people) have been pointing out the hypocrisy of homophobes with this sort of joke for ages and will continue to do it because it’s fucking hilarious. We are, in doing so, celebrating that it’s wonderful to be gay and sad that they don’t see that or see there at times in-the-closet-like behavior.
The last thing thing I need is a bunch of word police telling me what I can and cannot say.
You know who IS making it seem like there’s something wrong with being gay? People like you.
As a “joke” it treats being gay as derogatory. You’re welcome to make shitty homophobic jokes if you want to.
Are you gay?
Are you not ok with being gay if you are? Are you not and experiencing latent homophobia?
Because that’s the only way you can possible conclude that it’s derogatory to call someone gay.
lol, the idea that I’ve said there is something wrong with being gay or being called gay is rich.
You’ve said that using jokes about being gay is derogatory. Literally what you are saying is that calling someone gay has negative connotations. It’s bad to be gay.
Let’s try to put this in simple terms:
If one of my many very gay male friends calls someone a fag they are owning the definition of “fag”. If I call myself a dyke I own that word. If we joke about homophobes being secretly gay we own the language and we erect a shield against that being used in a derogatory manner against us.
You want to police those definitions and tell people what they can and cannot say and can and cannot joke about. You want to take away that shield.
I suspect you are young and did not live through a time when it was absolutely CRITICAL for the queer community writ large to take control of our language. Literally that was the only way we gained power and the only way we made jokes about fags and dykes NOT be derogatory.
Jokes that treat being gay as bad are themselves homophobic, yes - they do not reclaim the word, they perpetuate hatred. You’re welcome to make those jokes - I’m not stopping you by calling out your internalized homophobia.
You can also reclaim any words you want to. Nothing wrong with that.
You are interpreting this particular joke as saying being gay is bad. I’m not. So I’m reclaiming the words and rolling with it. 'MMmmkay?
A good question to answer that one is to ask if they thing Queer is a slur.
I’m curious what point you want to make.
Nobody’s telling you what you can and can’t say. They’re telling you that what you said is in bad taste, and youre telling them to stop saying that.
LOL. I’m pretty sure saying “that is just homophobia, by the way” is exactly trying to tell people what they can and can’t say.
I disagree. If someone came up to me and said “Buenos dias! Donde estas el bano?” and I was like “that is Spanish, by the way”, I have simply made an observation and have not implied that they aren’t allowed to speak Spanish.
LOL. And you seriously don’t see the difference between “hey that’s homophobic” and someone speaking a different language and pointing that out?
Wow. Ok then.
No. “That’s homophobic” and “That’s Spanish” are simply statements of fact. It’s left up to the listener whether they should continue being homophobic or speaking Spanish after it’s been pointed out. It sounds like you’ve chosen to double down on homophobia. Not the choice I’d make, but you do you. Nobodys stopping you. No es mi problema.
If you are going to be basing arguments on statements of fact your comparison should be factual.
One is subjective opinion and one is relatively objective fact ( assuming actual correctness and there not being some weird exception like a subset language or something ).
Unless you are personally the global arbiter of what is and isn’t homophobia, in which case ignore me.
Honestly? You don’t make any sense to me. Hopefully you make sense to you.
I’m gay. If a black person uses the N word in a joke are you as presumably Not A Black Person going to instantly assume they are racist? Or will you stop to ask why?
I’m not saying a black person can’t be racist or a gay person can’t be offensive to other people or even have latent homophobia. But as simplistic as it sounds that’s literally the basic argument here. Many straight people saying “hey thar that’s homophobic” and one gay person at least saying “nah, that’s funny” and being downvoted to hell.
Good call, I missed it. We’ve got layers of shittiness in this meme.
Sure, but the joke here is turning the dumb jokes of the homophobes against them, right? Calling a homophobe “haha u’r gay n a bottom” is kinda using their homophobia against them, no?
Also, I’m gay myself. If someone said “haha, u like taking it up the ass”, I would be like, “sure I do!”. Say this to a homophobe n they would be incredibly offended. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But sure, I get why the morals of this aren’t so straightforward.
You aren’t wrong. It’s rather philosophical at that point. There’s the “don’t say it because it’s shitty angle” (quasi-mine, though mine was more a explanation vs a held belief) vs the “take it back from them” angle. Both have pros/cons and I’m not going to pretend I have the ‘perfect’ answer. The truth is probably that whichever is more effective/least damaging probably varies by context.
This is just absolutely ridiculous. It’s thought police over-engineering for clout.
It’s a dissection of why some people in the LGBT community may be offended. If you’re unwilling to try to see the perspective of others and choose to instead reject empathy, that’s a problem for you and the people around you. This internet stranger will continue to have a good day.
Also, clout? On Lemmy? Oh good, I’ve got the support of all 12 of us…
Are you part of the community?
I am.
Do you think the perspective of everyone in the community is equally valid?
Complicated. Everyone gets to have opinions and some of those opinions are going to offend people. It’s arguably inevitable. The social consequences of having opinions of one kind or another is a pretty standard facet of being human. And validity is non-trivial to define. People have their experiences and they are valid to them but that won’t excuse them from the consequences of having an opinion that is shitty (e.g. “Nazis weren’t that bad” is an opinion that some people honestly hold and also merits a punch in the nose). So my shitty not really answer is “sort of?”.
One caveat (arguably unrelated) is that a lot of people like to state wrong things as opinions (e.g “I think the earth is flat”) and will claim that you can’t refute them because “that’s just my opinion”. It’s not, it’s an objective fact. Those aren’t valid.
Side note: I feel like you’re trying to lead me to something and I approve of your style even though I feel like I’m about to be wrong about something.
I don’t think you see the hypocrisy in your own comments.
Empathy would be you not trying to tell people what to think and say and being willing to see their perspective.
Hey maybe that’s meaningful to you. It certainly seems to be to many.
I never misunderstood that you’re close minded. I’ll even grant that it can be frustrating to feel like you need a formal course on such things and that it changes entirely too fast and that sometimes it all feels like bullshit (ask me about using the term demisexual wrong* on the internet one time). But the world is made better when we work to understand others, which you’ve demonstrated that as being a non-priority for you.
Then why are you here?
That’s your interpretation because I don’t agree with you because as a queer person I want to not be told how to use queer words. Thus demonstrating that working to understand others is a non-priority for you.
That’s the hypocrisy.
It’s not since Reddit that I’ve seen anyone engage in such masterful mental gymnastics to completely avoid getting the point. We have at least silver medal material right here.
Just because you don’t get it doesn’t mean I don’t make sense.
No seriously dude. Go talk to some older gay people, particularly men. Try to make some minimal effort to understand why communities who have been beaten to shit by society want to own their language. It’s gotta be something to have never been in that position.
I understand you. Here’s what you don’t understand: queer people are not a monolith. You do not represent all queer people, so stop acting like you do.
I understand that you don’t want to learn. Because that’s what you’re doing. You want to ignore why people don’t want you to say things like that so that the onus isn’t on you to change your behavior because that’s difficult and/or inconvenient. As above, it’s really frustrating to have to learn yet more terms (I still don’t quite get allosexual even though I apparently am that or something along those lines?) and then also to have to break associations with things that haven’t aged well because then you feel obligated to feel bad for making mistakes even if most of the time people don’t care/understand the difficulty.
The sheer arrogance of your comment… wow.
You are the one wanting to ignore people here. You are so convinced that only your perspective can be right that you are unwilling to even process the words I write. You don’t have to agree but to willfully ignore that what I’m saying has legitimacy is just disgusting. And I’ve no doubt you don’t even realize your oppression and your own bigotry. Do you?
I’ve read everything you’ve written and it’s all very immature, self-centered, abdication of responsibility paired with conservative level mental gymnastics. You’ve given me no perspective that I, a gay man from a small midwestern town, haven’t personally borne witness to and a little of what I’ve done once upon a time.
I’m not saying your perspective is wrong, I’m saying it’s self centered, lazy, and ultimately detrimental to you and the people around you.
I make no demands upon you so oppression is out. You are free to ignore my observations at any moment and I couldn’t care less. Hell, at this point I’m writing for everyone that’s not you that’s reading this. My statements are based on how your online persona comes across because I don’t know anything about you beyond that to be bigoted against. By definition, I’d have to be prejudiced against you for membership in a particular group to be bigoted and the only one you’ve listed is ‘queer’ and I’m not that self-hating. You are free to be all the negative things that your online persona appears to be. I’m telling you why people may not want to be around you because of your behavior.