Uh… This is coming from the folks who said “he who does not work, neither shall he eat” during a famine so… uh… yeah, that’s not the flex you think it is.
Edit: And in case anyone is wondering, this gets worse with context.
As opposed to the current time of surplus and abundance where it is if “you don’t work you don’t eat”. Which is morally a lot worse considering there is more than enough food to feed everyone
Yeah… no. Very little in modern history is morally worse than Soviet management of the famine of 1930-1933 (which they caused, too). That shit was at least on par with the Irish Famine in terms of sheer moral depravity.
Let me get this straight. To you, a famine produced unintentionally through policy that spiked class war and originated primarily from rich farmers sabotaging the crops and livestock as a response to their lands being collectivized in the first successful collectivization of a country in the history of the Earth, is to you as morally depraved as the English colonists literally starving Irish to death because of colonial and racist beliefs?
You won’t dignify me with a response because you’re simply replicating propaganda that you’ve heard on Reddit, and you can’t argue from knowledge but from vibes.
I don’t know choosing to not feed people when there is enough food to feed everyone seems a lot worse than choosing which people to not feed during a time of famine.
Obviously more people die from the famine, but at least that’s due to a lack of resources and not a manufactured scarcity
I can’t find a way to phrase this that’s not offensive, so I’ll just go ahead: Are you being obtuse or do you just not know what you’re talking about? Because if it’s the latter you should at least take a scroll down this Wikipedia page before you talk about this stuff. However, I will say that sacrificing millions of people for holy communism (which is what happened; the famine was a choice) isn’t much better than sacrificing them for holy property rights. Not asking for foreign aid and denying a famine even existed was also inexcusable.
And this was said about able-bodied parasites such as owners of the means of production, shareholders, landlords, and others living off society on non-labor income. At the same time, the population received old-age and disability pensions, maternity leave for women in labor and a huge number of social payments and compensations. Too bad most believe Goebbels propaganda and don’t study history.
And this was said about able-bodied parasites such as owners of the means of production, shareholders, landlords, and others living off society on non-labor income.
And Ukrainians, don’t forget Ukrainians. I know enough about early Soviet history to know that Stalin was a cold-blooded murderer. Not that the rest of the Communist Party was full of upstanding global citizens, but Stalin was particularly egregious.
Here we go again with the false claims of hunger directed particularly against Ukrainians.
The Bolsheviks gave Ukrainians for the first time in history borders of their own, representation of their own in politics and the right to study for free and in their own language. There are literal letters between Rosa Luxembourg and Lenin in which Rosa argues against Ukraine getting its own representation as a nationality, and Lenin argues in favour of it (which ultimately was done).
The president of the Soviet Union after Stalin was Ukrainian. There is no precedent, no continuation, and no following episode of hunger spiking particularly in Ukraine as it more-or-less did in the early 30s. And millions died outside Ukraine too during that hunger episode, primarily in southern Russia and Central Asia.
Trying to make the 30s famine about Ukrainians is a propaganda exercise first invented by the Nazis to draw Ukrainian sympathy during the Nazi invasion, and it’s picking up strength again as it’s used in Europe to stoke Russophobia and anti-communist sentiment.
I don’t think that’s what they’re saying. There are countless pieces of Nazi propaganda that were taken as fact at some point in the intervening 80 years. Famously, the number of people killed in the Dresden bombing was hugely inflated by the Nazis to smear the Allies, and those numbers were accepted for a very long time.
How are those comparable? In one an able bodied person refuses work, for they need not to. On the other someone incapable of work receive negligible amounts so they may survive
I also very much so doubt you know who Goebbels is
Stalin 1936 constitution. Holidays for “enemies of the people” were unpaid and in a quite cold climate of Siberia. They also cared about fitness of citizens by ensuring no one has too much of food. And if you didn’t like it, you get a free ride in a black car to the place of final rest.
Not true. The GULAG system, which is simply the prison system of the Soviet Union at the time, did pay inmates a wage while they worked there, this is common knowledge and you can check it up if you want to.
and in a quite cold climate of Siberia
Really? The Gulags were all in Siberia? How about you actually check what you’re talking about instead of spreading misinformation? From the Gulag museum:
Wow, a ton of Gulags were actually to the west of the Urals, not in Siberia, who would have thought. If only this information was widely available and public…
They also cared about fitness of citizens by ensuring no one has too much of food
Huh? Life expectancy in the Soviet Union rose exponentially, it was below 30 years of age before the Russian Revolution and 60 by the time Stalin died. The diet of the Soviet citizen was by the 60s healthier than that of a US citizen. The CIA itself says this BTW, check out on google “CIA USSR nutrition”, you’ll find a 1983 document claiming, and I quote, “American and Soviet citizens eat about the same amount of rood each day but the Soviet diet may be more nutritious”. Almost as if centering food production around the needs of the population instead of around the profit of food producers, gives a better result…
Just admit it: you don’t have any fucking idea what you’re talking about. You’re repeating talking points you’ve heard on Reddit or TV without actually checking anything.
You could literally open up a book someday and check your info, gulag inmates were paid. Wages were lower than those of a free worker, but nothing like the modern slavery that the USA uses in its prison system for example.
Where did I say ALL gulags were in Siberia
By using the cliche of “forced labor to the cold Siberia”, you’re propagating misinformation about the system, willingly or not. The fact that the majority of Gulags were in fact not in Siberia is kind of a strong statement in that it shows that the intent of gulags was not that of mass-murder of dissidents (which is the claim anticommunists like you normally do). The vast majority of gulag inmates were actually not political dissidents, but normal criminals. The gulag system was the prison system of the USSR for all crimes. Why would you send your average criminal who stole from another person to a death camp instead of trying to reform them? Why did most of the deaths in gulags coincide with a famine that affected the entire Soviet Union during a war and not before or after that? Why did the Gulag system, at its peak during the mass hysteria against nazism, have a number of prisoners similar to that of the modern USA? Maybe if you weren’t a propagandized misinformation spreader you could answer any of those questions. But no, you can’t, because you haven’t lifted the cover of one book in your entire life.
Stalin was alive in 60s?
I brought up the 60s because the Soviet Union was essentially industrialised by then. In 1917, when the Bolsheviks get to power, the former Russian Empire was a predominantly agrarian country where 80+% of people worked the land and the life expectancy was <30 years, there was no industry to speak of. The civil war which the fascists started, and in which England, France and the USA invaded Soviet Russia for the sin of being communist and gave material aid and troops to the pro-tsarist fascists, and which came right after WW1, left the country in a state of utter destruction, and the economy didn’t recover to pre-WW1 levels until 1929, the year when the first 5-year-plan was adopted. Industrialization of the Soviet Union was FAST as lightning, with GDP growths above 10% per year, the fastest industrialization process in history up to that point (and only surpassed by China to this day). But in 1941, as you may know, the Nazis invaded the country, and murdered about 27 million Soviet Citizens and essentially leveled the entire country west of Stalingrad. After 1945, the industrialization progress continued to its previous speed together with the reconstruction of the country, but it isn’t until at least the 60s when you can say the country was properly industrialized. This is why I said the 60s, because comparing a predominantly feudal country in terms of food security to our modern standards is an exercise of either ignorance of bad faith. So tell me, are you arguing from ignorance or from bad faith?
And there it is again. Dont you ever wonder why they had a constitution like this but treated their people like this. Do you have a window in your room? Can you check what happens to enemies of the state where you live? What happens again if you become disabled in our “civilized” societies?
have you ever wondered if you’re being fed bullshit?
The Soviet Union didn’t particularly treat homosexuals any worse than most countries at the time. Sure, it should have done better, but there are limitations to ideology when lessentially your entire ideological base members die in the struggle against the Nazis due to being the first to volunteer.
After the October Revolution of 1917, homosexuality was decriminalised in Soviet Russia with the repeal of the legal code of the Russian Empire, and this decriminalisation was confirmed with new criminal codes in 1922 and 1926. Under Joseph Stalin, the Soviet government reversed course in the late 1920s and promoted harsher policy against LGBTQ rights. In 1933, homosexuality was recriminalised in the Soviet Union, and Article 121, which prohibited male homosexuality, was added to the Soviet penal code in the following year.
If you had actually read anything on the “decriminalization” of homosexuality in Soviet Russia after 1917, you’d know that there was not really any social movement on the side of legalizing homosexuality. The fact that its criminalization was repealed is mostly due to Bolsheviks wanting to repeal essentially all Russian Imperial law.
Homosexuality wasn’t even well-understood at the time, they conflated gender and sexuality, which is why only male homosexuality was criminalized. The Soviet Union, due to it being heir to a very patriarchal society, wanted “stronger men and workers”, and lesbians were seen as a more masculine version of men (which was accepted) whereas gays were seen as “feminized men”, which was seen negatively.
Even then, my point is that after the 40s most of the theorists of socialism were fucking killed at the hands of Nazis, and that’s one of the biggest reasons why social policy didn’t develop sufficiently in the Soviet Union. But even so, the criminalization of homosexuality for the most part wasn’t particularly prosecuted compared to many countries, there’s a difference between something being illegal and something being prosecuted.
All in all: yes, they should have done better, but the material conditions of the moment didn’t really allow for much better.
Someone gets it.
Lets instead do this:
Every citizen, irrespective of their nationality, skincolor, gender has the right to:
This is directly taken from a 1936 constitution. Today one could improve on it but we’re so much worse, everywhere.
Now guess which one.
Go check if you dare
Uh… This is coming from the folks who said “he who does not work, neither shall he eat” during a famine so… uh… yeah, that’s not the flex you think it is.
Edit: And in case anyone is wondering, this gets worse with context.
As opposed to the current time of surplus and abundance where it is if “you don’t work you don’t eat”. Which is morally a lot worse considering there is more than enough food to feed everyone
Yeah… no. Very little in modern history is morally worse than Soviet management of the famine of 1930-1933 (which they caused, too). That shit was at least on par with the Irish Famine in terms of sheer moral depravity.
Let me get this straight. To you, a famine produced unintentionally through policy that spiked class war and originated primarily from rich farmers sabotaging the crops and livestock as a response to their lands being collectivized in the first successful collectivization of a country in the history of the Earth, is to you as morally depraved as the English colonists literally starving Irish to death because of colonial and racist beliefs?
I won’t dignify this slop with a response. Fucking tankies, man.
You won’t dignify me with a response because you’re simply replicating propaganda that you’ve heard on Reddit, and you can’t argue from knowledge but from vibes.
I don’t know choosing to not feed people when there is enough food to feed everyone seems a lot worse than choosing which people to not feed during a time of famine.
Obviously more people die from the famine, but at least that’s due to a lack of resources and not a manufactured scarcity
I can’t find a way to phrase this that’s not offensive, so I’ll just go ahead: Are you being obtuse or do you just not know what you’re talking about? Because if it’s the latter you should at least take a scroll down this Wikipedia page before you talk about this stuff. However, I will say that sacrificing millions of people for holy communism (which is what happened; the famine was a choice) isn’t much better than sacrificing them for holy property rights. Not asking for foreign aid and denying a famine even existed was also inexcusable.
And this was said about able-bodied parasites such as owners of the means of production, shareholders, landlords, and others living off society on non-labor income. At the same time, the population received old-age and disability pensions, maternity leave for women in labor and a huge number of social payments and compensations. Too bad most believe Goebbels propaganda and don’t study history.
And Ukrainians, don’t forget Ukrainians. I know enough about early Soviet history to know that Stalin was a cold-blooded murderer. Not that the rest of the Communist Party was full of upstanding global citizens, but Stalin was particularly egregious.
I assure you: you do not.
Here we go again with the false claims of hunger directed particularly against Ukrainians.
The Bolsheviks gave Ukrainians for the first time in history borders of their own, representation of their own in politics and the right to study for free and in their own language. There are literal letters between Rosa Luxembourg and Lenin in which Rosa argues against Ukraine getting its own representation as a nationality, and Lenin argues in favour of it (which ultimately was done).
The president of the Soviet Union after Stalin was Ukrainian. There is no precedent, no continuation, and no following episode of hunger spiking particularly in Ukraine as it more-or-less did in the early 30s. And millions died outside Ukraine too during that hunger episode, primarily in southern Russia and Central Asia.
Trying to make the 30s famine about Ukrainians is a propaganda exercise first invented by the Nazis to draw Ukrainian sympathy during the Nazi invasion, and it’s picking up strength again as it’s used in Europe to stoke Russophobia and anti-communist sentiment.
Of course you do, from the textbooks of Goebels and his followers.
https://shron1.chtyvo.org.ua/Niedzielko_Romuald/Kresova_knyha_spravedlyvykh_1939_1945_Pro_ukraintsiv_iaki_riatuvaly_poliakiv.pdf
http://resource.history.org.ua/cgi-bin/eiu/history.exe?C21COM=2&I21DBN=ELIB&P21DBN=ELIB&Image_file_name=book%2F0008802.pdf&IMAGE_FILE_DOWNLOAD=0
https://liva.com.ua/lenin-ukraine.html
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
edit: updated links
Surely anyone who dares criticize the great Soviets is a straight up Nazi! There can be no other explanation!
In this case, yes. These criticisms are literally Nazi propaganda.
I don’t think that’s what they’re saying. There are countless pieces of Nazi propaganda that were taken as fact at some point in the intervening 80 years. Famously, the number of people killed in the Dresden bombing was hugely inflated by the Nazis to smear the Allies, and those numbers were accepted for a very long time.
How are those comparable? In one an able bodied person refuses work, for they need not to. On the other someone incapable of work receive negligible amounts so they may survive
I also very much so doubt you know who Goebbels is
Stalin 1936 constitution. Holidays for “enemies of the people” were unpaid and in a quite cold climate of Siberia. They also cared about fitness of citizens by ensuring no one has too much of food. And if you didn’t like it, you get a free ride in a black car to the place of final rest.
Not true. The GULAG system, which is simply the prison system of the Soviet Union at the time, did pay inmates a wage while they worked there, this is common knowledge and you can check it up if you want to.
Really? The Gulags were all in Siberia? How about you actually check what you’re talking about instead of spreading misinformation? From the Gulag museum:
www.gulag.online/articles/mapa-taborovych-sprav-gulagu-a-pribehu-ze-stredni-evropy?locale=en
Wow, a ton of Gulags were actually to the west of the Urals, not in Siberia, who would have thought. If only this information was widely available and public…
Huh? Life expectancy in the Soviet Union rose exponentially, it was below 30 years of age before the Russian Revolution and 60 by the time Stalin died. The diet of the Soviet citizen was by the 60s healthier than that of a US citizen. The CIA itself says this BTW, check out on google “CIA USSR nutrition”, you’ll find a 1983 document claiming, and I quote, “American and Soviet citizens eat about the same amount of rood each day but the Soviet diet may be more nutritious”. Almost as if centering food production around the needs of the population instead of around the profit of food producers, gives a better result…
Just admit it: you don’t have any fucking idea what you’re talking about. You’re repeating talking points you’ve heard on Reddit or TV without actually checking anything.
Are you a little bit slow?
In a form of a piece of lead in their heads, no doubt.
Where did I say ALL gulags were in Siberia, sweetie?
Stalin was alive in 60s? News to me.
Another tankie. 🙄
You could literally open up a book someday and check your info, gulag inmates were paid. Wages were lower than those of a free worker, but nothing like the modern slavery that the USA uses in its prison system for example.
By using the cliche of “forced labor to the cold Siberia”, you’re propagating misinformation about the system, willingly or not. The fact that the majority of Gulags were in fact not in Siberia is kind of a strong statement in that it shows that the intent of gulags was not that of mass-murder of dissidents (which is the claim anticommunists like you normally do). The vast majority of gulag inmates were actually not political dissidents, but normal criminals. The gulag system was the prison system of the USSR for all crimes. Why would you send your average criminal who stole from another person to a death camp instead of trying to reform them? Why did most of the deaths in gulags coincide with a famine that affected the entire Soviet Union during a war and not before or after that? Why did the Gulag system, at its peak during the mass hysteria against nazism, have a number of prisoners similar to that of the modern USA? Maybe if you weren’t a propagandized misinformation spreader you could answer any of those questions. But no, you can’t, because you haven’t lifted the cover of one book in your entire life.
I brought up the 60s because the Soviet Union was essentially industrialised by then. In 1917, when the Bolsheviks get to power, the former Russian Empire was a predominantly agrarian country where 80+% of people worked the land and the life expectancy was <30 years, there was no industry to speak of. The civil war which the fascists started, and in which England, France and the USA invaded Soviet Russia for the sin of being communist and gave material aid and troops to the pro-tsarist fascists, and which came right after WW1, left the country in a state of utter destruction, and the economy didn’t recover to pre-WW1 levels until 1929, the year when the first 5-year-plan was adopted. Industrialization of the Soviet Union was FAST as lightning, with GDP growths above 10% per year, the fastest industrialization process in history up to that point (and only surpassed by China to this day). But in 1941, as you may know, the Nazis invaded the country, and murdered about 27 million Soviet Citizens and essentially leveled the entire country west of Stalingrad. After 1945, the industrialization progress continued to its previous speed together with the reconstruction of the country, but it isn’t until at least the 60s when you can say the country was properly industrialized. This is why I said the 60s, because comparing a predominantly feudal country in terms of food security to our modern standards is an exercise of either ignorance of bad faith. So tell me, are you arguing from ignorance or from bad faith?
And there it is again. Dont you ever wonder why they had a constitution like this but treated their people like this. Do you have a window in your room? Can you check what happens to enemies of the state where you live? What happens again if you become disabled in our “civilized” societies?
have you ever wondered if you’re being fed bullshit?
“Tankie’s thoughts”, page 423.
What you’re doing is called a “thought stopper” or “conversation stopper”. It is used in propaganda for hundreds of years.
I am pretty sure that would be a permanent condition you are suffering from.
Wow. You’re showing very civilized behavior. Maybe i should rethink my stance. :D
Luckily, the Soviet union treated homosexuals to a similar standard. /s
The Soviet Union didn’t particularly treat homosexuals any worse than most countries at the time. Sure, it should have done better, but there are limitations to ideology when lessentially your entire ideological base members die in the struggle against the Nazis due to being the first to volunteer.
You don’t get to blame this on the Nazis.
Again, not any worse than any other country of the time.
If you had actually read anything on the “decriminalization” of homosexuality in Soviet Russia after 1917, you’d know that there was not really any social movement on the side of legalizing homosexuality. The fact that its criminalization was repealed is mostly due to Bolsheviks wanting to repeal essentially all Russian Imperial law.
Homosexuality wasn’t even well-understood at the time, they conflated gender and sexuality, which is why only male homosexuality was criminalized. The Soviet Union, due to it being heir to a very patriarchal society, wanted “stronger men and workers”, and lesbians were seen as a more masculine version of men (which was accepted) whereas gays were seen as “feminized men”, which was seen negatively.
Even then, my point is that after the 40s most of the theorists of socialism were fucking killed at the hands of Nazis, and that’s one of the biggest reasons why social policy didn’t develop sufficiently in the Soviet Union. But even so, the criminalization of homosexuality for the most part wasn’t particularly prosecuted compared to many countries, there’s a difference between something being illegal and something being prosecuted.
All in all: yes, they should have done better, but the material conditions of the moment didn’t really allow for much better.
Couldn’t we just add equality for sexual orientation and gender expression to a new list of rights, along with the things already mentioned?
OP even said, “Today one could improve on it,” implying that the referenced constitution isn’t meant to be a comprehensive list for the modern day.
And those were obviously 100% kept 🤡