From my time living in the US, I got the impression American society is generally meek, conformist and often a bit shallow in their claimed political beliefs and attitudes (this is not true for everyone of course). See the postscriptum for some additional clarification
I thought the “rebel” attitude was primarily theatrical and aimed more at maintaining and conforming with the local cultural milieu. When everyone claims to be an “independent-minded free thinker”, then no one is really a rebel.
Take the tendency for localism, “rural posturing”, alleged libertarianism and faux-survivalism. The impression I got is that this is a sort of a “theme park” for adults movement. The localism is a bit superficial, it’s not like the rural areas have their own language or a truly distinct culture relative to the rest of the country.
In US rural areas everyone drives around in expensive off-road style vehicles (from both a cost and opex perspective). Infrastructure is well developed you can access all ecosystems for every manner of product and service with ease and relative cost efficiency by local standards (I will specifically note eCom delivery being universal ).
Compare that to the situation in that town when the Maoist bomb railways, most people cannot afford getting an off-road vehicle and would have to switch to busses which are heavily overloaded and prone to accidents and breakdowns. This is especially true during the monsoon season.
Or consider the gun culture in the US. My family are from very run-down towns in Asia and Europe, lots of poverty, challenges, no growth and so. One of my first experience of the US was Detroit, Gary (the where town Michael Jackson is from) and Flint. Never could I imagine that the towns where my family is from could have a much higher standard of living than large areas of the US (at least you don’t risk getting shot or robbed if you are out at night).
US lacks any functional to limit the negative externalities of gun ownership and much of the gun culture is built around opposing all common sense measure to reduce externalities purely out of malice and conformist culture. There is an abstract beauty to this level of stupidity and backwardness.
“Gun ownership” is a massive cultural signifier. Thinking that having a gun makes you “independent-minded, powerful, free thinker” is the most stereotypical American cultural motif there is. It’s not very “rebel” to think that merely owning a gun makes you independent and free. The whole “gun ownership to help fight back against the risk of oppression” is Hollywood style fanfic. This might have been true 250+ years ago, a lot has changed this days. I live in Ukraine, gun ownership would do nothing to help fight back against the russians. You need APCs, tanks, ballistic missiles, anti-air, bunker infrastructure in cities, mine clearing ships.
Apologies for sounding like a broken record, but the very notion that “America has a lot of rebels” is a conformist attitude. It really does not (definitely not more than average).
P.S. This is not an anti-American rant. It’s a great place, lots to see, with friendly people, good food from all over the world even in smaller towns, it’s a good to place to earn money, many world class companies, very strong R&D and higher education culture (at least historically). I’ve travelled a lot and a good policy is to focus on the positive things in a country/region and be flexible and try to be understanding about the negatives. In this case though, we are discussing the negatives, these are actual things I encountered while living in the US (as someone who didn’t necessarily wanted to move there permanently, immigrants are often a bit biased in their evaluations).
I was living in a small, relatively well off town, it was a bubble both economically and culturally.
My foreign friends and I travelled extensively when they were visiting and we stayed in Detroit multiple times, visited Gary and Flint, stay in random despondent rural trailer parks (my local friend was from there).
We visited many local cultural locations. There was a funny situation in a small rural museum where the bored receptionist was like “Oh wow, you are from Ukraine/[another country]. You know what, there are no other visitors, I will give you a private tour on a complementary basis.” She was really excited. I was polite and was asking questions and telling her about Eastern Europe and topics related to the museum content. She loved that we were visiting.
Also did some DIY tourism. Climbed over the fence to explore abandoned buildings with interesting graffiti. Took photos of random stuff in the ghetto. We had locals come up to us and ask if we were students doing research. I answered that I am a student at a regional university, but we are here not on university projects. It was crazy to see the number of young children hanging out seemingly alone during school time no less.
The trailer park home I was staying at was via a guy who burned down part of their school (he was good friends with one of my local university friends who invited to me to this town). One of his friends was buying drugs through a contact from the school burning guy’s father’s girlfriend. The father demanded a cut of the drugs (not financial comp). Stayed at another house in a completely rural area. The family would be considered poor by local standards, but their house was huge. At one point they converted it into a strange (by my standards) conservative church.
I was shocked how empty downtown Detroit felt outside of sport games and events. Even the major museums felt empty. I remember going to this nightclub that was on the top storey of a beautiful art deco skyscraper.
Also there was no rail access to Detroit, only busses which are not as comfortable or convenient. One of the students in my dorm wrote low quality article about how building a railway line would be bad thing. He was likely right due to the lack of feeder infrastructure, but his argument was more polemical. Cars equal = freedom. Cars are of course nice and convenient. But from my perspective you have much more freedom and independence when you have an expansive, convenient and “on time” railway system while having the option to use a car. In a way, it requires more personal responsibility to build such a society (not to mention the CCP’s massive success in building out national railway infrastructure).
Gary honestly felt a lot less interesting than Detroit or some other places. Even the downtown did not have anything distinctive. Just liquor stories, paydown loan places and mini marts. Jackson family home was tiny. I was expecting a gigantic museum considering how well know Michael Jackson is around the world. I would strongly recommend staying in Detroit over Gary.
I have positive memories about all these trips. This felt more real and satisfying than the small town I was living in. It felt fake with a lot cognitive dissonance. There was a funny situation were I wasn’t allowed in a fraternity party (even though I was invited by a junior member) likey because I didn’t look like a member of athlete fraternity community that hanged out exclusively with the blond sorority community. I lived in a major metropolis and we went to both underground rave events at high-end night clubs, so this was a funny situation.
I would disagree.
From my time living in the US, I got the impression American society is generally meek, conformist and often a bit shallow in their claimed political beliefs and attitudes (this is not true for everyone of course). See the postscriptum for some additional clarification
I thought the “rebel” attitude was primarily theatrical and aimed more at maintaining and conforming with the local cultural milieu. When everyone claims to be an “independent-minded free thinker”, then no one is really a rebel.
Take the tendency for localism, “rural posturing”, alleged libertarianism and faux-survivalism. The impression I got is that this is a sort of a “theme park” for adults movement. The localism is a bit superficial, it’s not like the rural areas have their own language or a truly distinct culture relative to the rest of the country.
In US rural areas everyone drives around in expensive off-road style vehicles (from both a cost and opex perspective). Infrastructure is well developed you can access all ecosystems for every manner of product and service with ease and relative cost efficiency by local standards (I will specifically note eCom delivery being universal ).
Compare that to the situation in that town when the Maoist bomb railways, most people cannot afford getting an off-road vehicle and would have to switch to busses which are heavily overloaded and prone to accidents and breakdowns. This is especially true during the monsoon season.
Or consider the gun culture in the US. My family are from very run-down towns in Asia and Europe, lots of poverty, challenges, no growth and so. One of my first experience of the US was Detroit, Gary (the where town Michael Jackson is from) and Flint. Never could I imagine that the towns where my family is from could have a much higher standard of living than large areas of the US (at least you don’t risk getting shot or robbed if you are out at night).
US lacks any functional to limit the negative externalities of gun ownership and much of the gun culture is built around opposing all common sense measure to reduce externalities purely out of malice and conformist culture. There is an abstract beauty to this level of stupidity and backwardness.
“Gun ownership” is a massive cultural signifier. Thinking that having a gun makes you “independent-minded, powerful, free thinker” is the most stereotypical American cultural motif there is. It’s not very “rebel” to think that merely owning a gun makes you independent and free. The whole “gun ownership to help fight back against the risk of oppression” is Hollywood style fanfic. This might have been true 250+ years ago, a lot has changed this days. I live in Ukraine, gun ownership would do nothing to help fight back against the russians. You need APCs, tanks, ballistic missiles, anti-air, bunker infrastructure in cities, mine clearing ships.
Apologies for sounding like a broken record, but the very notion that “America has a lot of rebels” is a conformist attitude. It really does not (definitely not more than average).
P.S. This is not an anti-American rant. It’s a great place, lots to see, with friendly people, good food from all over the world even in smaller towns, it’s a good to place to earn money, many world class companies, very strong R&D and higher education culture (at least historically). I’ve travelled a lot and a good policy is to focus on the positive things in a country/region and be flexible and try to be understanding about the negatives. In this case though, we are discussing the negatives, these are actual things I encountered while living in the US (as someone who didn’t necessarily wanted to move there permanently, immigrants are often a bit biased in their evaluations).
Out of all the possible places for a visitor from abroad to come to in America, you landed in Gary, Indiana?
That is fucking fascinating. Are you open to tell me a little more about your time in Gary?
I was living in a small, relatively well off town, it was a bubble both economically and culturally.
My foreign friends and I travelled extensively when they were visiting and we stayed in Detroit multiple times, visited Gary and Flint, stay in random despondent rural trailer parks (my local friend was from there).
We visited many local cultural locations. There was a funny situation in a small rural museum where the bored receptionist was like “Oh wow, you are from Ukraine/[another country]. You know what, there are no other visitors, I will give you a private tour on a complementary basis.” She was really excited. I was polite and was asking questions and telling her about Eastern Europe and topics related to the museum content. She loved that we were visiting.
Also did some DIY tourism. Climbed over the fence to explore abandoned buildings with interesting graffiti. Took photos of random stuff in the ghetto. We had locals come up to us and ask if we were students doing research. I answered that I am a student at a regional university, but we are here not on university projects. It was crazy to see the number of young children hanging out seemingly alone during school time no less.
The trailer park home I was staying at was via a guy who burned down part of their school (he was good friends with one of my local university friends who invited to me to this town). One of his friends was buying drugs through a contact from the school burning guy’s father’s girlfriend. The father demanded a cut of the drugs (not financial comp). Stayed at another house in a completely rural area. The family would be considered poor by local standards, but their house was huge. At one point they converted it into a strange (by my standards) conservative church.
I was shocked how empty downtown Detroit felt outside of sport games and events. Even the major museums felt empty. I remember going to this nightclub that was on the top storey of a beautiful art deco skyscraper.
Also there was no rail access to Detroit, only busses which are not as comfortable or convenient. One of the students in my dorm wrote low quality article about how building a railway line would be bad thing. He was likely right due to the lack of feeder infrastructure, but his argument was more polemical. Cars equal = freedom. Cars are of course nice and convenient. But from my perspective you have much more freedom and independence when you have an expansive, convenient and “on time” railway system while having the option to use a car. In a way, it requires more personal responsibility to build such a society (not to mention the CCP’s massive success in building out national railway infrastructure).
Gary honestly felt a lot less interesting than Detroit or some other places. Even the downtown did not have anything distinctive. Just liquor stories, paydown loan places and mini marts. Jackson family home was tiny. I was expecting a gigantic museum considering how well know Michael Jackson is around the world. I would strongly recommend staying in Detroit over Gary.
I have positive memories about all these trips. This felt more real and satisfying than the small town I was living in. It felt fake with a lot cognitive dissonance. There was a funny situation were I wasn’t allowed in a fraternity party (even though I was invited by a junior member) likey because I didn’t look like a member of athlete fraternity community that hanged out exclusively with the blond sorority community. I lived in a major metropolis and we went to both underground rave events at high-end night clubs, so this was a funny situation.
This has definitely been true from the 80s on and DEFINITELY from the 2000s.