Holy mother of all strawmen what the heck are you talking about? Are you intentionally being disingenuous or do you not understand the meaning of the word “likeable” in this context?
I agree with the general premise, that this country is not ready to elect a woman President. Lots of people in it are, but not enough in the right zip codes to make it in our system.
But, if you ask these people why they are not voting for a candidate, they will not say “it’s because she has a vagina”. They are too self aware to know that they can’t say it out loud. So, they say things like “I just don’t like her enough” or “she’s too shrill and bossy”.
My actual favorite excuse from the last election was the guy who said “she reminds me of my ex-wife”. At least he’s being honest.
Yes, I agree with you, using words like “shrill” or “bossy” is a great example of a sort of masked misogyny, which is why you used them in your example.
Those two words, among others, are words that are used almost exclusively about women. It can be helpful to point their usage out and call out latent misogyny.
“Aggressive” and “likeable” are not words that this works for. The commenter we’re talking about is tone policing words that aren’t even debatably used the same way, and it’s the kind of weird, fussy, oversensitive nonsense that is aggravating and distracting.
It’s also massively rude to imply somebody is a misogynist without any grounding at all, simply because they did not like a candidate who - incidentally - is a woman.
Women, because they’re humans just like men, have the capacity to be disliked for their actions and words.
Oh, hard disagree there. There is a certain class of misogynist who likes their women docile. They “dislike” anyone woman who they dont find “agreeable”, and view women who express their own opinions as “aggressive”.
Is it an overly broad generalization? Maybe. But it tracks!
My point is that they are all self aware enough to know they can’t just say “I just won’t vote for any woman”, so they will give you any other reason if asked. It doesn’t have to make sense to us, as long as they can justify it in their head.
And that, in our current political climate, there are just enough of these losers, in the right zip codes, to make a difference.
This is part of the reason I so strongly want AOC to take over Schumer’s Senate seat for a term or three. If she runs for President in 2028, she will probably lose. But if she moves to the Senate and is as effective there as she has been in the House, maybe the country will be ready by 2040.
Edit: just as an update, I’ve since learned that I was wrong and that “aggressive” and “un/likeable” are misogynistic red-flag terms. I apologise, you were right about those terms.
I absolutely hear you and I don’t disagree.
It’s really frustrating that people lie about their shitty bigoted feelings. Whether that’s because they’re incurious about why they dislike a female candidate (i.e. not interested in facing or dealing with their internalised misogyny), or they’re ashamed that they feel that way, or they secretly feel that they’re right to feel that way, or as you say they’re just outright proud misogynists who know that the optics of saying “I won’t vote for her because she’s a woman” are bad, it doesn’t matter.
One of the most difficult impacts of people lying about their real reasons for disliking candidates that are part of marginalised groups is that it makes the rest of us have to be very vigilant around any criticism of those candidates, because there is always the chance that somebody criticising that candidate is a racist, a homophobe, or a misogynist, and is trying to mask that. That means it is actually harder to genuinely just “not like” a candidate, for their personality, words, actions, etc., because good people are rightly paranoid.
Anyway, honestly I don’t think we’re disagreeing on fundamentals here. I’m just trying to explain why I am reluctant to label people as misogynists without any “real” clue, such as using those red-flag words like “bossy” or “shrill”. I know it’s a bit fussy but it’s important to me that we can be clear about things like that.
Agreed that the US is not ready for AOC in 2028. Also agreed that it would be good to see her energised and with a seat in the senate. HUGELY agreed that it would be fantastic to see Schumer piss off to whatever millionaire’s pigpen he’ll wind up in.
Must be a culture difference thing. They’re certainly not, in the UK, at least in my experience.
I’ve just searched it up and you’re right, I was wrong; if I search ‘“likeable” misogynist term’ or ‘“aggressive” misogynist term’, I do find a study that references “aggressive” being used more for women, which is honestly surprising to me, I apologise!
I didn’t quite find the same for “likeable”, the results seemed more about how women report having to be more amenable in the workplace to avoid being seen as “difficult”, which I totally agree is a problem but isn’t really what we’re talking about re the terms.
@hotdogcharmer@leadore I absolutely assure you likeability is an issue for women in the workplace in the UK. Signed, a British woman.
Look up “likeability trap”, though - it’s the name of a campaign tactic used against women in politics. It’s an ongoing problem.
@hotdogcharmer It’s not that they’re not used about men, it’s that people don’t consider likeability in men as an important factor when determining their competence as a leader. And in terms of aggression: men who are “aggressive” are “strong leaders”. Women who are “aggressive” are “unlikeable”. These terms work together. Aggressive can be used about both but it is only a pejorative for one.
I can certainly understand that and have heard that before for sure. I think the thing that’s worrying me is like, how do I avoid using terms that are pejoratives like “aggressive” without realising that they’re loaded in that way when used about women? I’m sure there are more issues at play for me, such as not knowing enough about how misogyny looks and not facing my own misogyny, but one issue I can identify is that I certainly don’t think men who are “aggressive” are “strong leaders”. I guess that’s part of why I initially and incorrectly rejected that as a misogynistic term.
One of the clients I work for at the moment is a big company, and the CEO is exactly what I’d call an “aggressive” man, and he’s a fucking dick. It sucks working for him. I’ve been told in performance reviews to be nicer about him. I just don’t find pig-headedness, stubbornness, aggressiveness, etc. to be helpful traits in a team setting!
I do want to get better at recognising, understanding and changing these misogynistic terms or thought patterns in myself, though!
Thanks. Did you try searching for “unlikeable” instead of “likeable”? Here’s one about that. I suspect the UK isn’t much different.
(edit to add a quote from AOC in that article:)
When you call Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris ‘unlikeable’, that’s an unsubstantial, unsubstantive, fluff, bulls**t, misogynistic word to use. Unlikeable? What is that? It’s not a policy critique.” --AOC
I didn’t, I focused on “likeable”. Thanks for the link, I do clearly have a lot to learn and would like to. There’s just so much I don’t see, whether that’s that I just don’t pay attention, or don’t experience it as a man, or that I don’t want to recognise what I do see.
I appreciate your time, and I’ll work to educate myself 👍
Ah, so the problem is the women weren’t “likeable” enough, got it. I heard they were too bossy, too. And too aggressive. Yeah.
Holy mother of all strawmen what the heck are you talking about? Are you intentionally being disingenuous or do you not understand the meaning of the word “likeable” in this context?
Are you trying to suggest that Hillary was the best possible candidate we could’ve chosen?
“bossy” is one of those words people use pretty much solely to describe women.
“Aggressive” and “likeable” are not. I don’t even understand why you’re trying to spin this
I get what that poster is doing.
I agree with the general premise, that this country is not ready to elect a woman President. Lots of people in it are, but not enough in the right zip codes to make it in our system.
But, if you ask these people why they are not voting for a candidate, they will not say “it’s because she has a vagina”. They are too self aware to know that they can’t say it out loud. So, they say things like “I just don’t like her enough” or “she’s too shrill and bossy”.
My actual favorite excuse from the last election was the guy who said “she reminds me of my ex-wife”. At least he’s being honest.
Yes, I agree with you, using words like “shrill” or “bossy” is a great example of a sort of masked misogyny, which is why you used them in your example.
Those two words, among others, are words that are used almost exclusively about women. It can be helpful to point their usage out and call out latent misogyny.
“Aggressive” and “likeable” are not words that this works for. The commenter we’re talking about is tone policing words that aren’t even debatably used the same way, and it’s the kind of weird, fussy, oversensitive nonsense that is aggravating and distracting.
It’s also massively rude to imply somebody is a misogynist without any grounding at all, simply because they did not like a candidate who - incidentally - is a woman.
Women, because they’re humans just like men, have the capacity to be disliked for their actions and words.
Oh, hard disagree there. There is a certain class of misogynist who likes their women docile. They “dislike” anyone woman who they dont find “agreeable”, and view women who express their own opinions as “aggressive”.
Is it an overly broad generalization? Maybe. But it tracks!
I think I’d take it a step further and say all misogynists like their women docile. That’s why “bossy” is such a loaded word.
But “dislike”? “Agreeable”? “Aggressive”? I can’t agree that those three are misogynistic terms, or even signifiers of misogyny.
I guess we just disagree on terms though. 🤷♂️ No ill will towards you or anything! It seems like we’re on board with misogyny being bad 😂
My point is that they are all self aware enough to know they can’t just say “I just won’t vote for any woman”, so they will give you any other reason if asked. It doesn’t have to make sense to us, as long as they can justify it in their head.
And that, in our current political climate, there are just enough of these losers, in the right zip codes, to make a difference.
This is part of the reason I so strongly want AOC to take over Schumer’s Senate seat for a term or three. If she runs for President in 2028, she will probably lose. But if she moves to the Senate and is as effective there as she has been in the House, maybe the country will be ready by 2040.
Edit: just as an update, I’ve since learned that I was wrong and that “aggressive” and “un/likeable” are misogynistic red-flag terms. I apologise, you were right about those terms.
I absolutely hear you and I don’t disagree.
It’s really frustrating that people lie about their shitty bigoted feelings. Whether that’s because they’re incurious about why they dislike a female candidate (i.e. not interested in facing or dealing with their internalised misogyny), or they’re ashamed that they feel that way, or they secretly feel that they’re right to feel that way, or as you say they’re just outright proud misogynists who know that the optics of saying “I won’t vote for her because she’s a woman” are bad, it doesn’t matter.
One of the most difficult impacts of people lying about their real reasons for disliking candidates that are part of marginalised groups is that it makes the rest of us have to be very vigilant around any criticism of those candidates, because there is always the chance that somebody criticising that candidate is a racist, a homophobe, or a misogynist, and is trying to mask that. That means it is actually harder to genuinely just “not like” a candidate, for their personality, words, actions, etc., because good people are rightly paranoid.
Anyway, honestly I don’t think we’re disagreeing on fundamentals here. I’m just trying to explain why I am reluctant to label people as misogynists without any “real” clue, such as using those red-flag words like “bossy” or “shrill”. I know it’s a bit fussy but it’s important to me that we can be clear about things like that.
Agreed that the US is not ready for AOC in 2028. Also agreed that it would be good to see her energised and with a seat in the senate. HUGELY agreed that it would be fantastic to see Schumer piss off to whatever millionaire’s pigpen he’ll wind up in.
Definitely agree, AOC would be most effective in and have the best chance to win Schumer’s seat.
Oh, they definitely are.
Must be a culture difference thing. They’re certainly not, in the UK, at least in my experience.
I’ve just searched it up and you’re right, I was wrong; if I search ‘“likeable” misogynist term’ or ‘“aggressive” misogynist term’, I do find a study that references “aggressive” being used more for women, which is honestly surprising to me, I apologise!
I didn’t quite find the same for “likeable”, the results seemed more about how women report having to be more amenable in the workplace to avoid being seen as “difficult”, which I totally agree is a problem but isn’t really what we’re talking about re the terms.
@hotdogcharmer @leadore I absolutely assure you likeability is an issue for women in the workplace in the UK. Signed, a British woman.
Look up “likeability trap”, though - it’s the name of a campaign tactic used against women in politics. It’s an ongoing problem.
You’re right, I am aware of that as an issue, but I wasn’t aware that the actual terms “likeable” or “unlikeable” were loaded like that
@hotdogcharmer It’s not that they’re not used about men, it’s that people don’t consider likeability in men as an important factor when determining their competence as a leader. And in terms of aggression: men who are “aggressive” are “strong leaders”. Women who are “aggressive” are “unlikeable”. These terms work together. Aggressive can be used about both but it is only a pejorative for one.
I can certainly understand that and have heard that before for sure. I think the thing that’s worrying me is like, how do I avoid using terms that are pejoratives like “aggressive” without realising that they’re loaded in that way when used about women? I’m sure there are more issues at play for me, such as not knowing enough about how misogyny looks and not facing my own misogyny, but one issue I can identify is that I certainly don’t think men who are “aggressive” are “strong leaders”. I guess that’s part of why I initially and incorrectly rejected that as a misogynistic term.
One of the clients I work for at the moment is a big company, and the CEO is exactly what I’d call an “aggressive” man, and he’s a fucking dick. It sucks working for him. I’ve been told in performance reviews to be nicer about him. I just don’t find pig-headedness, stubbornness, aggressiveness, etc. to be helpful traits in a team setting!
I do want to get better at recognising, understanding and changing these misogynistic terms or thought patterns in myself, though!
Thanks. Did you try searching for “unlikeable” instead of “likeable”? Here’s one about that. I suspect the UK isn’t much different.
(edit to add a quote from AOC in that article:)
I didn’t, I focused on “likeable”. Thanks for the link, I do clearly have a lot to learn and would like to. There’s just so much I don’t see, whether that’s that I just don’t pay attention, or don’t experience it as a man, or that I don’t want to recognise what I do see.
I appreciate your time, and I’ll work to educate myself 👍