Not even a successful society is perfect. It certainly doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. It’s still better than what most of the rest of the world is doing.
Nobody said we shouldn’t. The point is, we shouldn’t look away from the issues in a country just because they are doing better than others in some cases.
It means that when people advocate for improvements, YOU SHOULD STOP IMMEDIATELY PLAYING CRAB BUCKET.
…your argument is that we literally should not criticize ideas until they’re actually implemented and proven to be lacking? How does one establish that something is better without open critique?
You’re seeing a motivation behind my comment that isn’t there, so you really shouldn’t call me obtuse. Is Norway doing pretty good? Yes! Could they also do better? Yes! I’m not playing crab bucket, but I’m also not sticking my head in the sand here.
Maybe next time open with the “pretty good” stuff. Before this comment everything cooking was negative which sure looks like crab bucket (not just from you, but also from you) and I’m still leaning toward obtuse by omission tbh.
What does that even mean? For those of us who aren’t in the know like you are, that phrase doesn’t mean anything to us.
And if you’re open to a friendly suggestion, nix the “western world” propaganda; focus on explaining the “exploitation of billions in the global south” part.
Norway doesn’t produce cocoa beans. Norway doesn’t produce cotton, or bananas, or iron ore, or cobalt, or gold, or most basic raw materials you need to run a society. Neither do Spain, or Germany, or France, or the USA. Instead, these countries focus on the production of high value-added goods and services, which they can do because they are historically highly industrialized, developed, and have high levels of education, infrastructure and concentration of productive capital.
In this manner, Germany imports iron ore from poor countries in the global south at low prices, and exports cars at high prices. In the international market, therefore, one hour of German/French/Norwegian work is exchanged often for tens of hours of work from India, or Congo, or Mexico. This is unequal exchange, and is the pillar of neocolonialism.
Through political, economical and military powers, the western world has ensured that the global south remains underdeveloped. IMF predatory loans and neoliberal policy impositions, support for fascists or monarchists, coups, or outright military invasions are some of the most common tools the west uses to maintain these countries underdeveloped and with cheap labor.
In the international market, therefore, one hour of German/French/Norwegian work is exchanged often for tens of hours of work from India, or Congo, or Mexico.
Explain where the exploitation comes from.
Is the argument here that developed goods are worth more on the market than their raw materials & shouldn’t be?
Or that a unit of time of more skilled labor to develop those goods from raw materials should earn the same as less skilled labor, so the disparities in their market value is exploitation?
If they could earn the same with less skill, then why bother developing skill?
It’s not like they govern the foreign countries of international businesses they trade with for raw materials.
Is your argument that they shouldn’t trade internationally for raw materials?
More subtle means include IMF loans conditioned to applying neoliberal economic policy. In his 100-page resignation letter from the IMF, former IMF senior economist Davison Budhoo described the extensive and systematic statistical fraud used by the IMF to impose its policies on developing countries, and explained that the consequences of these policies led to massive poverty and starvation. In the letter, Budhoo wrote that the IMF’s policies are made in “utter disregard to local conditions” and lead countries to “self destruct” and “unleash unstoppable economic and social chaos” and also compared the IMF’s structural adjustment policies to a “terrorist attack”. He also stated that the routine policy packages of the IMF “can never serve, under any set of circumstances, the cause of financial balance and economic growth” and that “the ill-gotten, inadvertent power that we revel in wielding over prostrate governments and peoples - can only serve to accentuate world tensions”
Is your argument that they shouldn’t trade internationally for raw materials?
My argument is that these countries aren’t allowed to industrialize in their own terms with their own companies. It’s either western corporations controlling everything and extracting the wealth to Europe and North America, or murder.
Not directly, perhaps, but that’s how neocolonialism works.
Most of that is the US & UK: sanctions, supporting coups, bombings.
No country needs to take IMF loans.
As sovereign nations, they don’t need to use a foreign regulated currency & could adopt their own.
What does Norway have to do with this: guilt by broad association with western nations?
My argument is that these countries aren’t allowed to industrialize in their own terms with their own companies.
Again, what does Norway have to do with this?
Where is their exploitation?
It seems like you’re arguing they shouldn’t trade with Africa much like an economic sanction.
I’m sure that’d turn out great for Africans.
This is some unclear shit.
I think you need to properly define exploitation & identify where Norway’s international economic relations fit that definition.
Otherwise, it seems your criticism amounts to “Norway’s developed economy is doing better than economies of other countries they trade with”, which doesn’t necessarily mean they’re exploiting other countries.
List of wars involving Norway include Libya and Afghanistan, I specifically mentioned armed forces and Libya in my previous comment. Yes, being part of the west by association means that you’re complicit in all of this shit as a nation, including the genocide of Palestinians.
I’ve explained the tools western economies, including Norway, use to oppress poorer global south nations. If you want to read about the economic aspect of it, there’s a lot of literature regarding Unequal Exchange, I’m currently reading a book on a review of unequal exchange recently published by Iskra books and published for free as PDF on their website, just to point you to a resource.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Not even a successful society is perfect. It certainly doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. It’s still better than what most of the rest of the world is doing.
Nobody said we shouldn’t. The point is, we shouldn’t look away from the issues in a country just because they are doing better than others in some cases.
It means that when people advocate for improvements, YOU SHOULD STOP IMMEDIATELY PLAYING CRAB BUCKET.
Let better be better and then sure raise some issues. Your comment seems intentionally obtuse.
…your argument is that we literally should not criticize ideas until they’re actually implemented and proven to be lacking? How does one establish that something is better without open critique?
I think it speaks more to who you are as a pwrson that your first reaction is to criticize an idea.
Negativity begets negativity. I choose to look for positivity and hope first, and criticize later.
deleted by creator
You’re seeing a motivation behind my comment that isn’t there, so you really shouldn’t call me obtuse. Is Norway doing pretty good? Yes! Could they also do better? Yes! I’m not playing crab bucket, but I’m also not sticking my head in the sand here.
Maybe next time open with the “pretty good” stuff. Before this comment everything cooking was negative which sure looks like crab bucket (not just from you, but also from you) and I’m still leaning toward obtuse by omission tbh.
I’m sorry I didn’t spoon feed my comment for you, mister obtuse.
I forgive you.
Norway relies on the exploitation of billions in the global south, as all of the western world does.
What does that even mean? For those of us who aren’t in the know like you are, that phrase doesn’t mean anything to us.
And if you’re open to a friendly suggestion, nix the “western world” propaganda; focus on explaining the “exploitation of billions in the global south” part.
Norway doesn’t produce cocoa beans. Norway doesn’t produce cotton, or bananas, or iron ore, or cobalt, or gold, or most basic raw materials you need to run a society. Neither do Spain, or Germany, or France, or the USA. Instead, these countries focus on the production of high value-added goods and services, which they can do because they are historically highly industrialized, developed, and have high levels of education, infrastructure and concentration of productive capital.
In this manner, Germany imports iron ore from poor countries in the global south at low prices, and exports cars at high prices. In the international market, therefore, one hour of German/French/Norwegian work is exchanged often for tens of hours of work from India, or Congo, or Mexico. This is unequal exchange, and is the pillar of neocolonialism.
Through political, economical and military powers, the western world has ensured that the global south remains underdeveloped. IMF predatory loans and neoliberal policy impositions, support for fascists or monarchists, coups, or outright military invasions are some of the most common tools the west uses to maintain these countries underdeveloped and with cheap labor.
Explain where the exploitation comes from.
Not directly, perhaps, but that’s how neocolonialism works. 14 countries in Africa use currency whose central bank is in Paris, western nations keep military forces in many African countries and support only the governments that they want, and when a nation rejects complete exploitation by western corporations, they either apply sanctions (with the explicit aim of “creating hunger, desperation and overthrow of government”), or organize coups to democratically elected leaders, or directly bomb the fuck out of them.
More subtle means include IMF loans conditioned to applying neoliberal economic policy. In his 100-page resignation letter from the IMF, former IMF senior economist Davison Budhoo described the extensive and systematic statistical fraud used by the IMF to impose its policies on developing countries, and explained that the consequences of these policies led to massive poverty and starvation. In the letter, Budhoo wrote that the IMF’s policies are made in “utter disregard to local conditions” and lead countries to “self destruct” and “unleash unstoppable economic and social chaos” and also compared the IMF’s structural adjustment policies to a “terrorist attack”. He also stated that the routine policy packages of the IMF “can never serve, under any set of circumstances, the cause of financial balance and economic growth” and that “the ill-gotten, inadvertent power that we revel in wielding over prostrate governments and peoples - can only serve to accentuate world tensions”
My argument is that these countries aren’t allowed to industrialize in their own terms with their own companies. It’s either western corporations controlling everything and extracting the wealth to Europe and North America, or murder.
Most of that is the US & UK: sanctions, supporting coups, bombings. No country needs to take IMF loans. As sovereign nations, they don’t need to use a foreign regulated currency & could adopt their own.
What does Norway have to do with this: guilt by broad association with western nations?
Again, what does Norway have to do with this? Where is their exploitation?
It seems like you’re arguing they shouldn’t trade with Africa much like an economic sanction. I’m sure that’d turn out great for Africans.
This is some unclear shit. I think you need to properly define exploitation & identify where Norway’s international economic relations fit that definition.
Otherwise, it seems your criticism amounts to “Norway’s developed economy is doing better than economies of other countries they trade with”, which doesn’t necessarily mean they’re exploiting other countries.
List of wars involving Norway include Libya and Afghanistan, I specifically mentioned armed forces and Libya in my previous comment. Yes, being part of the west by association means that you’re complicit in all of this shit as a nation, including the genocide of Palestinians.
I’ve explained the tools western economies, including Norway, use to oppress poorer global south nations. If you want to read about the economic aspect of it, there’s a lot of literature regarding Unequal Exchange, I’m currently reading a book on a review of unequal exchange recently published by Iskra books and published for free as PDF on their website, just to point you to a resource.