• ghost@literature.cafe
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    51
    arrow-down
    36
    ·
    edit-2
    1 day ago

    they want to provoke violent confrontation, and are likely supporting those who are contributing here advocating for violent reaction. Don’t fall into the trap and they will not have any excuses or justification for escalation.

    To be clear: reacting with violence will allow them to justify their escalation of violence, which is exactly what they want.

    this is chess, not checkers.

    • liuther9@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      12 hours ago

      Yea I remember when in school if you dont react to aggressive scumbag beating you he will stop bullying you. Works all the time

    • HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      42
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 day ago

      You don’t fucking get it. No one listen to this guy.

      FEAR OF ESCALATION WILL ONLY BRING MORE ESCALATION.

      The “don’t be provoked” thing only works in the old world. The one where rules and laws still exist.

      These people are taking over, completely, and they will happily do so over your dead body if that’s what it takes.

      They know it, and I’m starting to get the feeling the shooter yesterday had instructions to kill. The fact that the shooter is not in custody is ALL the evidence anyone needs now to fully understand.

      Good luck to all.

      • ViceroTempus@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        1 day ago

        For real, people like ghost are more likely plants or bots that are trying to defuse and capture pressure so you don’t do what needs to be done. MAGA lives don’t matter, they have passed the moral event horizon. Do the right thing and defend yourself from our domestic enemies.

      • FauxLiving@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        1 day ago

        I’m starting to get the feeling the shooter yesterday had instructions to kill. The fact that the shooter is not in custody is ALL the evidence anyone needs now to fully understand.

        Ah yes, unfounded conspiracy theories, that’s what we need. That’ll surely set us apart from the fascists.

        • HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          1 day ago

          While the part about them being ordered to do it is unfounded, the part where they shoot a bullet and kill an innocent person, then interfere with people trying to save her, then lying about what happened at the highest levels of goverment, then saying we owe the murderer a debt of gratitude… that’s all just objective fact, sweetheart. Draw your own conclusions. 2 + 2 = 5 and all that.

          • FauxLiving@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 day ago

            While the part about them being ordered to do it is unfounded

            Yeah, that’s the part I’m talking about.

            Openly sharing your paranoid conspiratorial thinking doesn’t exactly give you a huge about of credibility.

            • HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              ·
              1 day ago

              I’m sorry, is somebody here to cite my work? As if it would take me more than 10 seconds to look at your history and find some failures of logical consistency.

              No actual comment on the topic? Shocking. Just shocking.

              • FauxLiving@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                24 hours ago

                I’m sorry, is somebody here to cite my work? As if it would take me more than 10 seconds to look at your history and find some failures of logical consistency.

                Great non sequitor, Captian logical consistency.

                Can you describe any sentence that I could have written which would make your comment less conspiratorial or paranoid?

                • HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  22 hours ago

                  Here’s a sentence you can try uttering:

                  “No way the Portland shootings are in any way connected to the Minneapolis shooting. Pure coincidence.”

                  • FauxLiving@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    21 hours ago

                    Good job, you beat up that mean ole fascist strawman that you’ve created out of thin air.

                    Any other positions that you want to imagine me having? Maybe pretend I’m a zionist, I’m sure you’ll do a great job against that one too.

                    Let me know if you need any more ideas for your fantasy world.

    • collapse_already@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      33
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 day ago

      Dude, they are already shooting and killing peaceful protesters. What does escalation even mean in that context? They’ll shoot and kill even more people? When someone is shooting at you, self defense is allowed.

    • SabinStargem@lemmy.today
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      40
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 day ago

      Renee didn’t escalate, and see what that got her?

      ICE is dependent on people not being able to fight back. They are bullies, and would be much less likely to engage if they could end up getting three bullets in the face. Power that can be applied to them, is the only thing that a bully would respect.

      • Billegh@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 day ago

        Right, she didn’t and we get outrage and a chance. If she pulled a gun on ICE then ICE would actually have ammo for their actions. I know how it sounds, but killing peaceful protestors is a very different thing from killing aggressive protestors. Deaths will increase with aggression from our side.

        • musubibreakfast@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          21
          ·
          1 day ago

          Read up on the nazi occupation of Europe, in many places like the Netherlands where people engaged in peaceful protest after surrender, while the Dutch government started to work with the nazis. Hence they were able to do all their bullshit, such as mass deportations. There’s multiple spaces in the Netherlands that are basically mass graves or memorials because we tried to reason with fucking nazis.

          But in other places such as Denmark, people resisted and fought back together with government support despite the occupation, because of this the nazis weren’t able to do most of their shit. Your country is currently infested with nazis who are deporting your people, fight them, don’t reason with them. Sabotage them, refuse them service, boycott companies that provide them with services, make their lives hell, don’t let them shop in your stores, walk on your streets or do anything, it’s the only option.

          • 0x0@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            24 hours ago

            Sabotage them, refuse them service, boycott companies that provide them with services, make their lives hell, don’t let them shop in your stores, walk on your streets or do anything, it’s the only option.

            Didn’t the write the manual on sabotage?

        • SabinStargem@lemmy.today
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          19
          ·
          edit-2
          1 day ago

          Renee wouldn’t have to pull a gun, so long as some observers and protesters are carrying. This is because there is an implication: “If you harm us, we will do the same to you.” It would go BOTH ways.

          Problem is, ICE doesn’t have consequences of any kind to keep them from committing violence. They get the satisfaction of hurting people, without paying a price for it.

        • Katana314@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          ·
          1 day ago

          The other thing that’s horrible but meaningful to absorb is that: We are at war with ICE. It’s not “escalation towards war”, this slow motion of opinions is the war.

          If you imagine the many thousands of people who died for our freedoms in World War 2, it becomes impossible to fathom, both the tragic loss, and the bravery of those volunteering to go. We’re instead fighting along ideology lines, rather than an actual frontline.

          Point being, choosing to risk one’s self to announce ICE’s presence and protest their actions is a similar form of bravery, and it does have an impact. Everyone choosing to tackle that challenge should be aware of the nonzero chance their actions may result in being a victim of violence or even death. If you can look to the bravery of old war veterans, and accept the comparably low, but still present, level of risk from nonviolent protest, it becomes easier to accept it as a path forward; especially since we can unfortunately see that a decade of fighting Nazi Germany did not utterly destroy the Nazi party.

        • 0x0@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          24 hours ago

          Right, she didn’t and we get outrage and a chance.

          No, all you get is outrage. And dead protesters are dead protesters, peaceful or not.

    • mrgoosmoos@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      41
      ·
      1 day ago

      they’re going to do the violence anyways, and they’ll make up excuses

      woman trying to drive her car away from them? shoot her in the face

    • 7101334@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 day ago

      Right, placating Hitler instead of confronting him went great historically.

    • xxam925@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      16
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 day ago

      Okay can you share our next moves?

      Because my calculus says civil war is inevitable and better earlier than later as they are actively preparing. They will look to build camps and disarm. It should crack off now.

      The longer we wait the stronger their position became.

      But please if you have a grandmaster mate worked out let’s hear it.

      • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        18 hours ago

        The most effective non-violent action we can take is joining local mutual aid groups, reading Full Spectrum Resistance for more details, and ultimately preparing and organizing for a General Strike.

        The country would be brought to its knees if suddenly deprived of profit and labor. That tactic was extremely effective in Chile in 2019, and had they not fallen for the trick of liberal reform, they would’ve had a successful revolution on their hands with virtually no bloodshed.

        If you aren’t in a union (or even if you are, it’s worth dual-carding), please consider joining the IWW to unionize your workplace (bonus: you’ll get higher wages, better benefits, and more time off if you succeed!) to strengthen a general strike if we manage to enact one, as most unions have a strike fund that can supplement your income during a general strike to make it more financially bearable (you should also save as much money as you can reasonably do, so it can also be used to keep yourself afloat during a strike).

        And for our international friends, you should join one as well, as fascism is gaining momentum globally. If your country isn’t listed below, just contact the IWW directly in the link above, and they’ll help you set up a new local branch.

        • 🇦🇷 Argentina: FORA
        • 🇦🇺 Australia: ASF-IWA
        • 🇧🇷 Brazil: FOB
        • 🇧🇬 Bulgaria: ARS, CITUB
        • 🇩🇪 Germany: FAU
        • 🇬🇷 Greece: ESE
        • 🇮🇹 Italy: USI
        • 🇳🇱 🇧🇪 Netherlands & Belgium: Vriji Bond
        • 🇪🇸 Spain: CNT
        • 🇸🇪 Sweden: SAC
        • 🇬🇧 United Kingdom: UVW
      • FauxLiving@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 day ago

        Great move, Bobby Fisher.

        You’ve posted on social media expressing support of violence, that would be really stupid if the federal government was run by people looking for any excuse to arrest and charge people with terrorist threats.

        I hope that you’re an outside agitator instead of just an idiot.

    • candyman337@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      17
      ·
      1 day ago

      Protestors are coming to these events with no weapons in hand, I think it is perfectly reasonable, given what we’ve seen, for protestors to be carrying guns like the black panthers did. ICE needs to know that thier violence will not go unopposed, the need to SEE that.

      • 7101334@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        1 day ago

        Reminder that California has strict gun laws primarily because racist Republicans feared an armed Black Panther march on the state capitol. See: Mulford Act

    • 0x0@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      24 hours ago

      Meanwhile they murder and deport people.
      Keep playing chess and you won’t have anyone else to play with.

    • selokichtli@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      ·
      1 day ago

      If it was chess, Trump wouldn’t be winning. This is far from chess, it’s the jungle.

    • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      22
      ·
      1 day ago

      reacting with violence will allow them to justify their escalation of violence

      This position is not sustainable. All it takes is one act of violence to justify escalation against everyone.

    • HasturInYellow@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      25
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 day ago

      I advocate for violence all the time. That’s because I hate them.

      I think it’s silly to prolong this. They are doing damage by the day.

      • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        8
        ·
        1 day ago

        I think it’s silly to prolong this

        Yeah, you guys should just speedrun to “martial law and no midterm elections”, that would make everything better.

          • 0x0@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            23 hours ago

            They don’t lie, just the other day they found Sadam’s WMDs.

        • 7101334@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 day ago

          no midterm elections

          Oh no, we might not get the chance to vote in Democrats so they can…

          checks notes

          write a strongly worded letter then send another $2 billion to Israel!

          • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 day ago

            Well, clearly the only viable alternative is a civil war with thousands of dead. Because clearly nothing has changed in the Democratic camp, since - as we know - Marry Sheffield, Michelle Wu, and Zohran Mamdani are all, famously, in the capitalist pockets of Big Business, right?

            • 7101334@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 day ago

              Those are all mayors. With the exception of Zohran, by virtue of how massive NYC is, none have the ability to meaningfully influence federal politics. Your counterpoint just proves it’s the Democrats functioning as the graveyard of leftist movements as they were designed to be. They have to allow meaningless wins to frustrate momentum.

              • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 day ago

                Fuck me, you can’t be serious…

                After decades of capitalists being elected, finally some of the most socialist people in the history of US win, and you’re like “nah, nothing of importance has changed”.

                Come on, bruv!

                Also, calling the mayor of NY a “meaningless win” is certainly a vibe…

                • 7101334@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 day ago

                  Zohran has already condemned the righteous Palestinian resistance and caved to pressure from the national security state in having the NYPD Commissioner report to him directly instead of a subordinate.

                  My hope for Zohran is that he moderately decreases the cost of living for the people of New York. I don’t expect a socialist revolution, though I’m ready and hopeful to be proven wrong.

                  Am I wrong that they have no meaningful influence over federal politics?

                  • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 day ago

                    Zohran has already condemned the righteous Palestinian resistance

                    You’re confused, I think? He condemned and revoked some pro-Israeli decrees.

                    caved to pressure from the national security state in having the NYPD Commissioner report to him directly instead of a subordinate

                    Are you a bot? This sentence makes no sense. Even ignoring the fact that the NYPD Commissioner is a civilian who is appointed by and reports to the mayor (and that’s been the case since the 19th century), your sentence seems to suggest that the Commissioner should be reporting to their subordinate? Which is impossible? Unless you mean “Mamdani’s subordinate”, which - again - makes no sense, because the Commissioner is supposed to report to the mayor, and you’d think it’s good that a new, socialist mayor wants to keep close tabs on the famously racist and brutal police force?

                    Am I wrong that they have no meaningful influence over federal politics?

                    You’re completely blind to the fact that Americans have - for the first time in recent history - voted for a socialist platform. That’s the change.

    • SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      19
      ·
      1 day ago

      Exactly what “violence” was Renee Good guilty of?

      These gestapo don’t need excuses or justification because they have no responsibility or consequences.

      • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 day ago

        It’s not what OC means.

        If people start actually fighting against ICE, as in, with physical violence, Trump will enact martial law and take any remaining restrictions off of his goons.

        • Katana314@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          14
          ·
          1 day ago

          While I don’t think we should show them our violent side, I would not evoke fears of martial law. Trump wants people to naturally follow the concept of martial law because he does not have the resources or support to enact it. It’s what AOC said; “Do not comply in advance”. Don’t believe any claims that the gestapo “could choose to make things worse”.

          • 0x0@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            24 hours ago

            or support to enact it.

            Didn’t stop him from kidnapping Maduro. He doesn’t give a shit about laws, neither does ICE.

          • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 day ago

            he does not have the resources or support to enact it.

            Like he didn’t have the resources to push the invasion of Venezuela through Congress?

            • Katana314@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              11
              ·
              1 day ago

              Kidnapping sole individuals, even presidents, turns out to not require quite as many resources as you’d think. They focus on these sole moments of fear because they don’t have the means to accomplish the pervasive military occupation they want. Hence very poorly directed National Guard deployments where the guard is puttering around unsure what’s expected of them (because Trump is afraid to say the quiet part out loud: Beat citizens)

        • 0x0@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          24 hours ago

          take any remaining restrictions

          So fire 6 times instead of 3?

          • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            24 hours ago

            No, bring out the military in tanks and APCs and start gassing, arresting, or killing anybody who’s out on the streets after curfew.

            Educate yourself about what totalitarian dictatorships do to protests.

        • matlag@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          1 day ago

          He already assumes an alternate reality. He already made up BS to deploy National Guard. Now his Gestapo executes people in the street and they’re making up terrorist accusations.

          He WILL absolutely declare martial law based on made up threats. It’s not a “if”, it’s only a “when”. His goons can already shoot people in the street in front of cameras, I don’t know how much more restrictions you believe they have.

          I’m not tellling you to take arms, I have the privilege to not live in the US, but do you realize the escalation pace you’ve been through in 1 year, and you still think it won’t go further?

        • KittyCat@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          1 day ago

          He’ll find a way to do it anyways if that’s his wanted plan. Appeasement does not work.

    • bryophile@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      13
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      1 day ago

      This seems like just a guess though of what seems “likely” and who “they” support. Truth is that no one knows. They may be supporting you as your argument is one that suppresses resistance and makes it seem futile, which also favours them and can be quite dangerous.

      Not that I know what the truth is, just want to make clear no one knows. And they do not seem to need a justification for violence anyway.

      They’re just playing you (saying this from outside US) because they know you can’t make sense of this, and resisting or not will both work in their favour.

    • pjwestin@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      ·
      1 day ago

      No, we’re way passed this point. They are going to enact violence no matter how well behaved you are. The only hope is to show up in massive numbers and remind them how many more of us there are.

    • Bullerfar@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      ·
      1 day ago

      But it is a double negative. Peaceful protests hasn’t done jack shit so far, now it’s naturally a phase two…

        • 0x0@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          23 hours ago

          I mean,… those puffy costumes sure are great for concealed carry… so i’ve heard…

      • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        1 day ago

        The bullies will have tanks and APCs when Trump enacts martial law if ICE is under attack.

        • HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          1 day ago

          Then so be it. It would have been that at the start, and it will be that now.

          What are people waiting for, the US military to spontaneously combust?

          Fight now, or fight harder later. Those are your options unless you plan to run. Understand that.

          • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 day ago

            That’s some top tier delusion. “Fight now”, lol. With handguns? With buckets of paint? Against APCs and drones?

            Wake up, man! It’s not the 18th century! The only hope the US has is a crushing midterms victory by the Democrats, then maybe they put these bastards in prison.

            If not, it’s going to be blood on the streets, if not flat out a civil war, with thousands dead.

            • HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              1 day ago

              Foreign interference account.

              No one believes legitimate midterm elections are happening. Or that if they happen, the results will be accepted by MAGA. No one.

              Anyone pushing for “we must crush them in the elections” is either willfully pushing a false narrative, or a complete fucking moron.

              • FauxLiving@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                1 day ago

                Anyone pushing for “we must crush them in the elections” is either willfully pushing a false narrative, or a complete fucking moron.

                Yes, what idiots.

                Who strives to live in a democracy? That’s so 1900s.

                What we really need is faceless anonymous strangers telling other people to commit violence. You know, just like the founders intended.

                  • FauxLiving@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    7 hours ago

                    I’ve seen Andor so I understand your point.

                    In order for you to understand my counter argument you will need to read War and Peace, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and the first three Harry Potter novels. Let me know when you’re finished and then I’ll respond.

              • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 day ago

                So, in your opinion, a civil war with thousands dead is the better alternative?

                • HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 day ago

                  Correct. Because it will so obviously be worse than that if it doesn’t happen.

                  This is my opinion.

                  • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    3
                    ·
                    1 day ago

                    My opinion is that it’s better to attempt winning mid-terms and getting rid of the trash peacefully than going all out just because they’ll probably cheat during elections.

    • WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 day ago

      They will do that anyway. What are the ptotesters saving themselves for, slavery? Maybe they should try to emmigrate. That way, they can all be here, when we start gathering every person we can for the fight.

    • FlyingCircus@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      1 day ago

      I’ll bet you also like to call Trump TACO, too, huh?

      That they will escalate their violence is inevitable. At this point we should all be organizing our communities for self defense.

      • matlag@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        1 day ago

        TACO only refers to dealing with bodies who can and do resist him. China can hit him. Europe can hit him. Even Canada can bite (and some tariff to take effect in 2026 were just pushed out to 2027, because… TACO!).

        But “his” people does not bite (yet). So no limit there until he feels some kind of pain in return.

    • slappyfuck@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      1 day ago

      Yep. At some point they’re going to do this and some folks are gonna open fire on them or throw a Molotov or something, and then the repression will get harsher and harsher. We need to stop them before this escalates.