You are taking the discussion very personally. Itās an individualist complaint. You might be an awesome person and a great benefit to Canadian society. So if you immigrate here and overcome the baggage of being a colonizer citizen and cultural perspectives that are probably invisible to you, fukan a, congrats and welcome. You will be rare as a gem. Your response tells me you have a ways to go before decolonizing your mind. First you must acknowledge your inadvertent participation in the bullshit.
I keep seeing ādonāt blame meā posts from USA folks who donāt want to take any responsibility for the society they live inā¦ and they want to bring that attitude here!
As a Canadian I would not move to Bolivia, because our mining companies are neocolonial blights on their economyā¦ unless I could be clearly employed mitigating that colonialism.
I apologize for the late response, I only use this account during breaks/lunch at work and I couldnāt help wanting to continue the conversation.
Your response tells me you have a ways to go before decolonizing your mind. First you must acknowledge your inadvertent participation in the bullshit.
Iām going to try some extra effort to internally translate what you probably mean and respond to that from both a personal and meta perspective starting with the personal if only to hear your thoughts on both and sate my curiosity:
On a personal level: Iād be willing to listen to any counter arguments of any ideological belief I hold. I thrive on challenging my own and otherās belief systems through discourse. Its a major reason why I spend time on Lemmy (and used to spend time on Reddit writing novelas in response to other novela sized posts). If oneās argument is compelling enough, I will change my views (and have had my views changed in the past via this very method.)
On a meta level: What I think would be unreasonable to expect of anyone is to tell them they must believe in anything in order to live somewhere outside of some very basic things. On a systemic level it would be authoritarian and draconian otherwise.
That said, if I were to interpret your words here less charitably, it sounds like almost like you are asking people to repent for the sin of having been born and raised in the US regardless in order to take refuge by going through a re-education program or something.
I keep seeing ādonāt blame meā posts from USA folks who donāt want to take any responsibility for the society they live inā¦ and they want to bring that attitude here!
Individuals are not responsible for the society they are born in and are raised in, regardless of context. People donāt even choose to be born in the first place, let alone where.
As a Canadian I would not move to Bolivia, because our mining companies are neocolonial blights on their economyā¦ unless I could be clearly employed mitigating that colonialism.
Are you as a Canadian, directly responsible for the neocolonial blights in Bolivia because you are a Canadian citizen?
Are you as a Canadian, directly responsible for the neocolonial blights in Bolivia because you are a Canadian citizen?
More than 1/40,000,000th responsible, yes. Directly, I donāt think so, Iām not aware of investments in Canadian mining. My spouseās pension plan may be investing there, because even though they have some ethical oversight, money, uh, finds a way.
āDirectā is a bit of a false dichotomy however. I benefit from those atrocities in various ways. I pay taxes, I use government services, and the CA government enables this neocolonialism. I work for clients who have done I-donāt-know-what, I use products that are cheap because of this exploitation, and I fail to track many details of the supply chain that would help me avoid participating.
More, I have not donated to miningwatch.ca for years, I havenāt written any letters to officials about it in decades, and I havenāt even been tracking news about the problem lately.
Given that those are all choices I have made, whether active or passive, I bear a little extra responsibility above the basic citizenship share, yes. Itās a lot less responsibility than the choice I made to have children, letās say, but it is each individualās to some degree. My life is full of such things. Itās not a burden! Itās the bitter irony of awareness, which is a blessing.
Itās also the basis for a civic mindset that will get us through the great filter.
TL;DR: you leave a wake as you pass through life, those ripples wash up somewhere
I think you believe I and other Canadians are saying no USA citizens should move to Canada. I have heard a few people mention this but itās fringe.
Refugees in particular, and that has been mentioned in this thread, well weāre readying up for that like we always have. Active dinner table discussions about how to handle an influx of trans folk and other victims of fascism, beds available, resources for support, secrecy protocols, etc.
What has changed, though? A declaration of war, and yes it isnāt official but it feels surreal and inevitable at this point. I canāt stress this enough: Canada is on fucking edge and the threat is a complete elimination of identity, mass death and suffering, and generations of oppression and resistance.
You know, colonialism.
What I think would be unreasonable to expect of anyone is to tell them they must believe in anything in order to live somewhere outside of someĀ veryĀ basic things. On a systemic level it would be authoritarian and draconian otherwise.
Oh, basic things like being in favour of a colonial outcome? So it sounds like you are suggesting we should welcome those who hold us in contempt by hiding behind ideology. āOh youāre just overreactingā say the US centrists.
So yes, perhaps we should be screening immigrants for their position on our pending invasion. Iām not asserting that, but I wouldnāt be surprised if security protocols are enacted at borders.
What I am talking about is reception. How any US citizen moving here will have to deal with the social reality. After 100+ years of low level colonialism from the south, we have some attitudes that you will have to deal with.
it sounds like almost like you are asking people to repent for the sin of having been born and raised in the US regardless in order to take refuge by going through a re-education program or something.
lol well statistically a large number of US immigrants do believe in original sin. However I am pointing out that it will be difficult for someone who was raised in a highly individualistic culture to take responsibility for the society they come from, and for the beliefs they carry forward. So yeah, if you come to Canada, and pretend we are just as individualistic as the USA, youāre going to feel like a hero around all these meek and diminished folk. And that has been happening my whole life, āamericansā who move here and talk down while acting convivial and take over all the little ponds they swim in. Itās a type. Usually professional or middle class. Often they are āfleeingā the Statesā¦ but not really. I grew up with an influx of draft dodgers, and yeah, they were welcomed, but there were problems, and hereās the thing: they are often oblivious to the fundamental cultural differences.
So when I refer to ādecolonize your mindā that is something we are actively trying to do as average residents of Canada, as we draw a long running genocide to conclusion. Itās a common enough phrase that you can research it yourself, cf. Freire, Pedagogy of the Opressed and related ideas.
The sharp point of colonialism wielded in our direction from the south means weāve had to put up with a lot of bullshit.
So, to clarify, if you move here as a refugee because you object to your government, but arenāt a direct victim yet, and call yourself a refugee, expect doubt. Expect irony as your privilege is obvious. Expect to prove you arenāt the enemy in spirit, and expect to do some work shedding the things that made your country the enemy.
This includes culture and attitudes that you arenāt aware of.
Individuals are not responsible for the society they are born in and are raised in, regardless of context. People donāt even choose to be born in the first place, let alone where.
That is just a bizarre conservative attitude that works well for neo-aristocracy goals. Itās destructive to other societies and we wish you wouldnāt export that unwelcome shit in your media and migrants.
So fucking tiring. The world is not black and white, yes we carry collective responsibility. Itās a matter of degrees, culture doesnāt just magically happen and society springs forth from culture. If Assata Shakur can take responsibility so can you.
I think you believe I and other Canadians are saying no USA citizens should move to Canada. I have heard a few people mention this but itās fringe.
I never thought this, you made it clear that wasnāt your belief. No worries here.
So it sounds like you are suggesting we should welcome those who hold us in contempt by hiding behind ideology. āOh youāre just overreactingā say the US centrists.
Iām not fan of centrists, but I donāt think requiring people to be leftwing to enter Canada would be good.
So yes, perhaps we should be screening immigrants for their position on our pending invasion. Iām not asserting that, but I wouldnāt be surprised if security protocols are enacted at borders.
I actually kind of think that would be a reasonable thing to ask. But of course Iāll admit itād be likely impossible to verify. Youād at least filter out the most brazen rightwing US patriots.
Iāll even go so far as to say that in some level of my own fleeting suicidal ideation, Iāve thought about joining the Canadian military on the front line. And Iād be lying if I did not fantasize a little about seeking revenge on my āexcompatriotsāā¦ quite directly via such a route. Specifically of the MAGA variety.
Iād probably be a bit more Sherman-esque in my attitude.
These MAGA peopleā¦ they are simply no longer people Iām interested in empathizing with at virtually any level. My hatred of them is at an intensity that is almost certainly irrational and self destructive.
Iād bet there are many other Americans that feel very similarly.
lol well statistically a large number of US immigrants do believe in original sin. However I am pointing out that it will be difficult for someone who was raised in a highly individualistic culture to take responsibility for the society they come from, and for the beliefs they carry forward. So yeah, if you come to Canada, and pretend we are just as individualistic as the USA, youāre going to feel like a hero around all these meek and diminished folk. And that has been happening my whole life, āamericansā who move here and talk down while acting convivial and take over all the little ponds they swim in. Itās a type. Usually professional or middle class. Often they are āfleeingā the Statesā¦ but not really. I grew up with an influx of draft dodgers, and yeah, they were welcomed, but there were problems, and hereās the thing: they are often oblivious to the fundamental cultural differences.
The amount of self reported individualism in Canada vs the US is virtually identical. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2004/01/14/americans-and-canadians/ (under āValues: Similarities and Differencesā) this is an old survey, but I would be doubtful the numbers have meaningfully shifted since.
But this is besides a far more interesting point for me that I really hope you will engage with.
That is just a bizarre conservative attitude that works well for neo-aristocracy goals. Itās destructive to other societies and we wish you wouldnāt export that unwelcome shit in your media and migrants.
And here is the most interesting element of the conversation and Iāll admit its almost a tangent. That said, Iām disagreeing in good faith.
Its not an āattitudeā it is factual. Before you were born, did you get some kind of ācreate a characterā prompt? Of course not.
It is sheer pure reality: no one chooses to even be here or anywhere for that matter. That would make no sense.
Nonetheless, to support the pressure to conform and serve a society that arguably as a collective has a far more significant culpability for oneās non-consentual existence as an individual I find as a sort of absurdity. Individuals should respect each other, but they owe nothing to the society (or parents) that birthed them, if anything society (and parents) owe them an unpayable and infinite debt.
Of course, I also donāt believe in free will, and that in of itself complicates my thoughts on these matters.
Itās great that you want to throw in with defense of our country. You do understand that any USA person who does that would have to check their head for attitudes right? And there would be a high trust bar to vault.
Regarding self-reported individualism: maybe? Definition and study quality matters. The experience of difference is markedly clear, especially to those of us with family on both sides of the border.
And also, ideology is like halitosis, itās always someone elseās problem, eh?
Responsibility for society starts at young adulthood, which is a fuzzy line because it varies per person. Bizarre that you would try to dissociate being a member of a culture and society without acknowledging participation and maintenance and responsibilityā¦ but very āAmerican.ā It capitulates to authority.
I keep seeing a response to words like āwelcomingā as though it is a binary, for instance. Are you writing as though thereās welcome and deny, and thatās it? Fox News does this sleight of mind, for instance, reducing things to absolutes. Itās how single issue voters are created. Question it.
I once documented a youth conference of diasporic Black students from Windsor, Detroit, and Toronto. As director and editor I had to pay attention closely to the discussion. Some amazing things became clear: fundamental differences in identity and worldview. In particular, the Canadian youth got where the USA youth were coming from, but not the reverse, at least during the discussions.
It was more than about identity, it was about nuance and complexity. Something just made it really hard for the Detroit folks to think in terms more than black white latino asian and a few others, as well as simplifying broader topics. Looking for easy conclusions. The Toronto folk counted over 100 languages spoken at their school and thought in terms of ethiopian, africanadian, igbo, jamaican, trini, etc. The Windsor folk were like, āyeah that and weāre distinct yet linked, our local history explains a lot, and we have to work together across divisions.ā Social complexity is pretty natural in canadian discourse.
This, this is one of the difficult things to explain across the border. Itās one of the key things we are worried most about losing in an annexation. And like most colonial relationships, the understanding generally goes one way.
You do understand that any USA person who does that would have to check their head for attitudes right?
Attitude as in instability or propensity to commit war crimes against MAGA people? I might fail that check admittedly.
Responsibility for society starts at young adulthood, which is a fuzzy line because it varies per person. Bizarre that you would try to dissociate being a member of a culture and society without acknowledging participation and maintenance and responsibilityā¦
Iām not ātrying to dissociateā anything of the sort. Iāve thought and read and debated about about the nature of human existence for an abnormally long time and what Iāve told you is simply a major piece of my current conclusions.
If anything Iām ravenously seeking out someone to convince me my ideas are wrong. Partly because when someone does that it to me it means my beliefs become just that much more refined and accurate. Not enough people are willing to challenge their own beliefs or actively engage in defending them. They attach their ideology to their very identity and react emotionally to counters to their beliefs. I donāt do that or respect that. My loyalty is to reality, not my sense of belonging or identity.
Another reason is a lot of my own beliefs about life and existence (and for instance the current political realities of the country I live in) are quite unpleasant and many of them Iād like to be rid of if I could find some counters convincing enough to break from them Iād honestly be relieved.
If anything my lack of dissociation is making me cripplingly depressed and angry and probably part of why Iām on track for a high blood pressure diagnosis.
but very āAmerican.ā It capitulates to authority.
I can assure you that my specific beliefs are not the norm for Americans. Most Americans do not have any desire to think deeply about their own ideology at all, and even those that talk of ideology often just embrace some well developed ācounter culturalā identity and call it their ideology without much further analysis.
Your response is just a colonial perspective.
You are taking the discussion very personally. Itās an individualist complaint. You might be an awesome person and a great benefit to Canadian society. So if you immigrate here and overcome the baggage of being a colonizer citizen and cultural perspectives that are probably invisible to you, fukan a, congrats and welcome. You will be rare as a gem. Your response tells me you have a ways to go before decolonizing your mind. First you must acknowledge your inadvertent participation in the bullshit.
I keep seeing ādonāt blame meā posts from USA folks who donāt want to take any responsibility for the society they live inā¦ and they want to bring that attitude here!
As a Canadian I would not move to Bolivia, because our mining companies are neocolonial blights on their economyā¦ unless I could be clearly employed mitigating that colonialism.
I apologize for the late response, I only use this account during breaks/lunch at work and I couldnāt help wanting to continue the conversation.
Iām going to try some extra effort to internally translate what you probably mean and respond to that from both a personal and meta perspective starting with the personal if only to hear your thoughts on both and sate my curiosity:
On a personal level: Iād be willing to listen to any counter arguments of any ideological belief I hold. I thrive on challenging my own and otherās belief systems through discourse. Its a major reason why I spend time on Lemmy (and used to spend time on Reddit writing novelas in response to other novela sized posts). If oneās argument is compelling enough, I will change my views (and have had my views changed in the past via this very method.)
On a meta level: What I think would be unreasonable to expect of anyone is to tell them they must believe in anything in order to live somewhere outside of some very basic things. On a systemic level it would be authoritarian and draconian otherwise.
That said, if I were to interpret your words here less charitably, it sounds like almost like you are asking people to repent for the sin of having been born and raised in the US regardless in order to take refuge by going through a re-education program or something.
Individuals are not responsible for the society they are born in and are raised in, regardless of context. People donāt even choose to be born in the first place, let alone where.
Are you as a Canadian, directly responsible for the neocolonial blights in Bolivia because you are a Canadian citizen?
More than 1/40,000,000th responsible, yes. Directly, I donāt think so, Iām not aware of investments in Canadian mining. My spouseās pension plan may be investing there, because even though they have some ethical oversight, money, uh, finds a way.
āDirectā is a bit of a false dichotomy however. I benefit from those atrocities in various ways. I pay taxes, I use government services, and the CA government enables this neocolonialism. I work for clients who have done I-donāt-know-what, I use products that are cheap because of this exploitation, and I fail to track many details of the supply chain that would help me avoid participating.
More, I have not donated to miningwatch.ca for years, I havenāt written any letters to officials about it in decades, and I havenāt even been tracking news about the problem lately.
Given that those are all choices I have made, whether active or passive, I bear a little extra responsibility above the basic citizenship share, yes. Itās a lot less responsibility than the choice I made to have children, letās say, but it is each individualās to some degree. My life is full of such things. Itās not a burden! Itās the bitter irony of awareness, which is a blessing.
Itās also the basis for a civic mindset that will get us through the great filter.
TL;DR: you leave a wake as you pass through life, those ripples wash up somewhere
Ah, nice that you took the time.
I think you believe I and other Canadians are saying no USA citizens should move to Canada. I have heard a few people mention this but itās fringe.
Refugees in particular, and that has been mentioned in this thread, well weāre readying up for that like we always have. Active dinner table discussions about how to handle an influx of trans folk and other victims of fascism, beds available, resources for support, secrecy protocols, etc.
What has changed, though? A declaration of war, and yes it isnāt official but it feels surreal and inevitable at this point. I canāt stress this enough: Canada is on fucking edge and the threat is a complete elimination of identity, mass death and suffering, and generations of oppression and resistance.
You know, colonialism.
Oh, basic things like being in favour of a colonial outcome? So it sounds like you are suggesting we should welcome those who hold us in contempt by hiding behind ideology. āOh youāre just overreactingā say the US centrists.
So yes, perhaps we should be screening immigrants for their position on our pending invasion. Iām not asserting that, but I wouldnāt be surprised if security protocols are enacted at borders.
What I am talking about is reception. How any US citizen moving here will have to deal with the social reality. After 100+ years of low level colonialism from the south, we have some attitudes that you will have to deal with.
lol well statistically a large number of US immigrants do believe in original sin. However I am pointing out that it will be difficult for someone who was raised in a highly individualistic culture to take responsibility for the society they come from, and for the beliefs they carry forward. So yeah, if you come to Canada, and pretend we are just as individualistic as the USA, youāre going to feel like a hero around all these meek and diminished folk. And that has been happening my whole life, āamericansā who move here and talk down while acting convivial and take over all the little ponds they swim in. Itās a type. Usually professional or middle class. Often they are āfleeingā the Statesā¦ but not really. I grew up with an influx of draft dodgers, and yeah, they were welcomed, but there were problems, and hereās the thing: they are often oblivious to the fundamental cultural differences.
So when I refer to ādecolonize your mindā that is something we are actively trying to do as average residents of Canada, as we draw a long running genocide to conclusion. Itās a common enough phrase that you can research it yourself, cf. Freire, Pedagogy of the Opressed and related ideas.
The sharp point of colonialism wielded in our direction from the south means weāve had to put up with a lot of bullshit.
So, to clarify, if you move here as a refugee because you object to your government, but arenāt a direct victim yet, and call yourself a refugee, expect doubt. Expect irony as your privilege is obvious. Expect to prove you arenāt the enemy in spirit, and expect to do some work shedding the things that made your country the enemy.
This includes culture and attitudes that you arenāt aware of.
That is just a bizarre conservative attitude that works well for neo-aristocracy goals. Itās destructive to other societies and we wish you wouldnāt export that unwelcome shit in your media and migrants.
So fucking tiring. The world is not black and white, yes we carry collective responsibility. Itās a matter of degrees, culture doesnāt just magically happen and society springs forth from culture. If Assata Shakur can take responsibility so can you.
I never thought this, you made it clear that wasnāt your belief. No worries here.
Iām not fan of centrists, but I donāt think requiring people to be leftwing to enter Canada would be good.
I actually kind of think that would be a reasonable thing to ask. But of course Iāll admit itād be likely impossible to verify. Youād at least filter out the most brazen rightwing US patriots.
Iāll even go so far as to say that in some level of my own fleeting suicidal ideation, Iāve thought about joining the Canadian military on the front line. And Iād be lying if I did not fantasize a little about seeking revenge on my āexcompatriotsāā¦ quite directly via such a route. Specifically of the MAGA variety.
Iād probably be a bit more Sherman-esque in my attitude.
These MAGA peopleā¦ they are simply no longer people Iām interested in empathizing with at virtually any level. My hatred of them is at an intensity that is almost certainly irrational and self destructive.
Iād bet there are many other Americans that feel very similarly.
The amount of self reported individualism in Canada vs the US is virtually identical. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2004/01/14/americans-and-canadians/ (under āValues: Similarities and Differencesā) this is an old survey, but I would be doubtful the numbers have meaningfully shifted since.
But this is besides a far more interesting point for me that I really hope you will engage with.
And here is the most interesting element of the conversation and Iāll admit its almost a tangent. That said, Iām disagreeing in good faith.
Its not an āattitudeā it is factual. Before you were born, did you get some kind of ācreate a characterā prompt? Of course not.
It is sheer pure reality: no one chooses to even be here or anywhere for that matter. That would make no sense.
Nonetheless, to support the pressure to conform and serve a society that arguably as a collective has a far more significant culpability for oneās non-consentual existence as an individual I find as a sort of absurdity. Individuals should respect each other, but they owe nothing to the society (or parents) that birthed them, if anything society (and parents) owe them an unpayable and infinite debt.
Of course, I also donāt believe in free will, and that in of itself complicates my thoughts on these matters.
Itās great that you want to throw in with defense of our country. You do understand that any USA person who does that would have to check their head for attitudes right? And there would be a high trust bar to vault.
Regarding self-reported individualism: maybe? Definition and study quality matters. The experience of difference is markedly clear, especially to those of us with family on both sides of the border.
And also, ideology is like halitosis, itās always someone elseās problem, eh?
Responsibility for society starts at young adulthood, which is a fuzzy line because it varies per person. Bizarre that you would try to dissociate being a member of a culture and society without acknowledging participation and maintenance and responsibilityā¦ but very āAmerican.ā It capitulates to authority.
I keep seeing a response to words like āwelcomingā as though it is a binary, for instance. Are you writing as though thereās welcome and deny, and thatās it? Fox News does this sleight of mind, for instance, reducing things to absolutes. Itās how single issue voters are created. Question it.
I once documented a youth conference of diasporic Black students from Windsor, Detroit, and Toronto. As director and editor I had to pay attention closely to the discussion. Some amazing things became clear: fundamental differences in identity and worldview. In particular, the Canadian youth got where the USA youth were coming from, but not the reverse, at least during the discussions.
It was more than about identity, it was about nuance and complexity. Something just made it really hard for the Detroit folks to think in terms more than black white latino asian and a few others, as well as simplifying broader topics. Looking for easy conclusions. The Toronto folk counted over 100 languages spoken at their school and thought in terms of ethiopian, africanadian, igbo, jamaican, trini, etc. The Windsor folk were like, āyeah that and weāre distinct yet linked, our local history explains a lot, and we have to work together across divisions.ā Social complexity is pretty natural in canadian discourse.
This, this is one of the difficult things to explain across the border. Itās one of the key things we are worried most about losing in an annexation. And like most colonial relationships, the understanding generally goes one way.
Attitude as in instability or propensity to commit war crimes against MAGA people? I might fail that check admittedly.
Iām not ātrying to dissociateā anything of the sort. Iāve thought and read and debated about about the nature of human existence for an abnormally long time and what Iāve told you is simply a major piece of my current conclusions.
If anything Iām ravenously seeking out someone to convince me my ideas are wrong. Partly because when someone does that it to me it means my beliefs become just that much more refined and accurate. Not enough people are willing to challenge their own beliefs or actively engage in defending them. They attach their ideology to their very identity and react emotionally to counters to their beliefs. I donāt do that or respect that. My loyalty is to reality, not my sense of belonging or identity.
Another reason is a lot of my own beliefs about life and existence (and for instance the current political realities of the country I live in) are quite unpleasant and many of them Iād like to be rid of if I could find some counters convincing enough to break from them Iād honestly be relieved.
If anything my lack of dissociation is making me cripplingly depressed and angry and probably part of why Iām on track for a high blood pressure diagnosis.
I can assure you that my specific beliefs are not the norm for Americans. Most Americans do not have any desire to think deeply about their own ideology at all, and even those that talk of ideology often just embrace some well developed ācounter culturalā identity and call it their ideology without much further analysis.