Dude, it’s not fucking evolution. We’re not naturally like this. You’re trying to understand humans, but its like the ‘alpha wolf’ thing.
This is the behavior capitalism authoritarianism and a life that knows nothing but bondage creates in humans. Break that, and you get different behavior.
Once fear is learned, insecurity and bullying are inevitable follow-ons for too many that create the overcompensating aggressive types, and the eager-to-please ass-kissers who learn to conform to survive & convince themselves it’s “the way.” You’d have to somehow eliminate all that, which is all but impossible, IMHO.
Bullying will always be there even if society actively frowns upon it, and tries to cancel it. There are always exceptions, and they will learn how to manipulate to get what they want. They are often sociopaths, and those with the charisma and smarts to con people will find ways subvert any systems meant to keep them in their place, or from doing harm to the larger whole of society.
I’m not looking for perfection, nor making excuses. I’m trying to address in a realistic fashion the actual deeply-rooted causes of humanity’s propensity for self-destruction.
Like i said, bullying is a cuktural value we nurture. Arguably our highest. Stop that, and se have less. I dont know how much less-you probably dont get to zero with anything in a population of billions, but less. Probably a lot less.
sociopaths
You ever actually met one? Lived with one? They’re not just evil for evil’s sake. They could function in an ideal society, and we’d probably make fewer of them. They’re assholes, not literal demons. There are solutions here. They exist-instead of putting them in charge of everythkng and giving them authority, you make them surgeons or firefighters or something where they can do good prosocial work while being admired and filling their needs and still being just such fucking jerks.
Sociopathy isn’t a hotcha about a world that functions on consent; it’s the biggest fuckup of this one.
humanity’s propensity for
But thata what im saying. You’ve only ever seen capitalist subjects. Maybe you met some old folks who grew up in the ussr and know some socialist subjects, but they were still authoritarian subjects. I dont think youve chilled with folks who grew up in tje mountains of chiapas or the AANES, i don’t think you’ve been a part of a serious disaster response where radicalbpunks and illegalists and shit come in cobtact with soccer moms.
You’ve seen people who exist under one kind of very imposed very artificial condition. You do not in fact know shit about humanity or its propensities. You’ve probably only ever even seen yourself from one or two angles.
I’m telling you; whike it wont be perfect and there will ve problems; these are not them. I’d talk in more detail but I’d be doxxing myself.
Humans are humans, and there are a quite a number of degrees to which each leans towards good or bad. Yes, you can influence the bulk of them towards one direction if enough effort is put into it, but there will always be a not-insignificant number for whom that won’t work.
You seem to be pinning your expectations upon creating a somewhat idealized society where all this can at least be minimized and/or controlled, and that is indeed probably the best we can hope for without resorting to some form of forced artificial mental control. To get there successfully, we need to find ways to correct these problems as soon as they occur so they don’t languish and become endemic to someone’s mental processes.
Since fear & bullying start very early in life, we need effective ways of recognizing that it’s happening as well as counter it quickly to prevent it forming the basis of each affected person’s personality. Unfortunately, IMHO it will take a commitment to keep at it for a far longer time than humanity is ever likely to manage to stay focused on it, however. Even if we were to manage to virtually eliminate it, we’d lose focus due to that success, and it’d likely rear its ugly head again with minimal resistance.
There’s unlikely to ever be a form of human government that manages indefinitely while also treating its subjects properly. Someone’s always going to be working to subvert it for their own ends, and sooner or later one of them will be successful in doing so. If anybody survives, then the cycle will begin anew.
That doesn’t mean we can’t do our best to try to make things right - just that we’re not infallible, and sooner or later it’s all going to go to shit again & we’ll have to start over again.
Youre still talking like you have experience with humans generally, when you only have experience with one kind of human
You do not. You have likely never had prolonged interaction with anyone not in that situation.
good/bad
Im kind of into neitzsche; i think these words are lazy shit. Not something i use internally.
for whom that won’t work
For whom what won’t work? Actively cultivating the most egregious vices that can be incubated in our flesh, and then throwing people away like garbage? I don’t know what you’re picturing here, but you seem to be ewuating cruelty and horror with effectiveness and efficiency, which seems kind of fucked up vile and provably wrong, but you don’t seem receptive enough to outside input to make laying that out worthwhile.
minimized/controlled
Completely missing the point. it’s being controlled and optimized for now, and you have never met any person for whom it was not.
forced control
Dude why do i need control? Why does anyone?
correct these problems as soon as rgey occur
Im all for prevebtion, and i do think a less fucked society pretty much always eesults in a healthier populace, but people don’t need to be perfect. Not even close. I’d like to give them the opportunity, but it is not required of them.
can only fix problems early
Nope. Bullshit. Its harder, and im all for prevention and early intervention to minimize the time people suffer, but it’s not a requirement of a bwtter world; just a very likely product.
You’re talking like humans aren’t the same everywhere. Cultures vary, but overall there’s the same ranges of personality types everywhere.
Whatever. You’re obviously too full of yourself for productive conversation - never mind your incorrect and irrelevant assumptions about my life experiences. Good night.
Only bevause we make tgem that way. You haven’t seen enoufh variety to know what’s software and what’s hardware. Thats what im saying.
Like having only ever run windows computers with x86 processors, from ms-DOS to win11, but only windows. Maybe you’ve seen a server edition, but more likely you haven’t.
There are underoying rules and underlying fundamental limits, and functions of what happens and is easy/hard are based on the x86 instruction set, but you have no way to know what’s that and whats a microsoft windows thing.
And im telking you, as someone who used os/2 back in the mists of time and linux mint a couple times and raspbian on ARM once, a couple versions of android, ios for a month, even saw someone run slackware once and had to work wirh a RISC based microcontroller:
i dont know that I know enough to say what fundamental behavior is, but i know with certainty that you dont even have those glimpses into other worlds and ways of being that ive had. I just know it isn’t what you’re claiming.
my life experiences
Yes im sure youve seen subjected people in both koreas china japan vietnam and thailand, india and pakistan and armenia and yemen and jordan and south africa and bolivia and france and ireland and portugul and canada. And for some things those differences matter! But this variable is one you have not seen a range of.
Dude, it’s not fucking evolution. We’re not naturally like this. You’re trying to understand humans, but its like the ‘alpha wolf’ thing.
This is the behavior capitalism authoritarianism and a life that knows nothing but bondage creates in humans. Break that, and you get different behavior.
Once fear is learned, insecurity and bullying are inevitable follow-ons for too many that create the overcompensating aggressive types, and the eager-to-please ass-kissers who learn to conform to survive & convince themselves it’s “the way.” You’d have to somehow eliminate all that, which is all but impossible, IMHO.
Fear is not one thing.
Insecurity probably, bullying no-might happen sometimes but not inevitable, definitely a high cultural value.
Ass kissing conformists are a problem, but not necessarily terminal.
We don’t all need to be perfect to have a better world. That’s a fucking excuse.
Bullying will always be there even if society actively frowns upon it, and tries to cancel it. There are always exceptions, and they will learn how to manipulate to get what they want. They are often sociopaths, and those with the charisma and smarts to con people will find ways subvert any systems meant to keep them in their place, or from doing harm to the larger whole of society.
I’m not looking for perfection, nor making excuses. I’m trying to address in a realistic fashion the actual deeply-rooted causes of humanity’s propensity for self-destruction.
Like i said, bullying is a cuktural value we nurture. Arguably our highest. Stop that, and se have less. I dont know how much less-you probably dont get to zero with anything in a population of billions, but less. Probably a lot less.
You ever actually met one? Lived with one? They’re not just evil for evil’s sake. They could function in an ideal society, and we’d probably make fewer of them. They’re assholes, not literal demons. There are solutions here. They exist-instead of putting them in charge of everythkng and giving them authority, you make them surgeons or firefighters or something where they can do good prosocial work while being admired and filling their needs and still being just such fucking jerks.
Sociopathy isn’t a hotcha about a world that functions on consent; it’s the biggest fuckup of this one.
But thata what im saying. You’ve only ever seen capitalist subjects. Maybe you met some old folks who grew up in the ussr and know some socialist subjects, but they were still authoritarian subjects. I dont think youve chilled with folks who grew up in tje mountains of chiapas or the AANES, i don’t think you’ve been a part of a serious disaster response where radicalbpunks and illegalists and shit come in cobtact with soccer moms.
You’ve seen people who exist under one kind of very imposed very artificial condition. You do not in fact know shit about humanity or its propensities. You’ve probably only ever even seen yourself from one or two angles.
I’m telling you; whike it wont be perfect and there will ve problems; these are not them. I’d talk in more detail but I’d be doxxing myself.
Humans are humans, and there are a quite a number of degrees to which each leans towards good or bad. Yes, you can influence the bulk of them towards one direction if enough effort is put into it, but there will always be a not-insignificant number for whom that won’t work.
You seem to be pinning your expectations upon creating a somewhat idealized society where all this can at least be minimized and/or controlled, and that is indeed probably the best we can hope for without resorting to some form of forced artificial mental control. To get there successfully, we need to find ways to correct these problems as soon as they occur so they don’t languish and become endemic to someone’s mental processes.
Since fear & bullying start very early in life, we need effective ways of recognizing that it’s happening as well as counter it quickly to prevent it forming the basis of each affected person’s personality. Unfortunately, IMHO it will take a commitment to keep at it for a far longer time than humanity is ever likely to manage to stay focused on it, however. Even if we were to manage to virtually eliminate it, we’d lose focus due to that success, and it’d likely rear its ugly head again with minimal resistance.
There’s unlikely to ever be a form of human government that manages indefinitely while also treating its subjects properly. Someone’s always going to be working to subvert it for their own ends, and sooner or later one of them will be successful in doing so. If anybody survives, then the cycle will begin anew.
That doesn’t mean we can’t do our best to try to make things right - just that we’re not infallible, and sooner or later it’s all going to go to shit again & we’ll have to start over again.
Youre still talking like you have experience with humans generally, when you only have experience with one kind of human
You do not. You have likely never had prolonged interaction with anyone not in that situation.
Im kind of into neitzsche; i think these words are lazy shit. Not something i use internally.
For whom what won’t work? Actively cultivating the most egregious vices that can be incubated in our flesh, and then throwing people away like garbage? I don’t know what you’re picturing here, but you seem to be ewuating cruelty and horror with effectiveness and efficiency, which seems kind of fucked up vile and provably wrong, but you don’t seem receptive enough to outside input to make laying that out worthwhile.
Completely missing the point. it’s being controlled and optimized for now, and you have never met any person for whom it was not.
Dude why do i need control? Why does anyone?
Im all for prevebtion, and i do think a less fucked society pretty much always eesults in a healthier populace, but people don’t need to be perfect. Not even close. I’d like to give them the opportunity, but it is not required of them.
Nope. Bullshit. Its harder, and im all for prevention and early intervention to minimize the time people suffer, but it’s not a requirement of a bwtter world; just a very likely product.
Not a huge fan of those!
You’re talking like humans aren’t the same everywhere. Cultures vary, but overall there’s the same ranges of personality types everywhere.
Whatever. You’re obviously too full of yourself for productive conversation - never mind your incorrect and irrelevant assumptions about my life experiences. Good night.
Only bevause we make tgem that way. You haven’t seen enoufh variety to know what’s software and what’s hardware. Thats what im saying.
Like having only ever run windows computers with x86 processors, from ms-DOS to win11, but only windows. Maybe you’ve seen a server edition, but more likely you haven’t.
There are underoying rules and underlying fundamental limits, and functions of what happens and is easy/hard are based on the x86 instruction set, but you have no way to know what’s that and whats a microsoft windows thing.
And im telking you, as someone who used os/2 back in the mists of time and linux mint a couple times and raspbian on ARM once, a couple versions of android, ios for a month, even saw someone run slackware once and had to work wirh a RISC based microcontroller:
i dont know that I know enough to say what fundamental behavior is, but i know with certainty that you dont even have those glimpses into other worlds and ways of being that ive had. I just know it isn’t what you’re claiming.
Yes im sure youve seen subjected people in both koreas china japan vietnam and thailand, india and pakistan and armenia and yemen and jordan and south africa and bolivia and france and ireland and portugul and canada. And for some things those differences matter! But this variable is one you have not seen a range of.