Questions beyond that don’t fit into that framework and are blocked off with “that’s just not how things are”.
Fair enough, I can accept that. We live in a reality where you cannot have free will and only good at the same time. I can’t imagine anything different so I can’t follow you in that line of thinking, and since no such reality does exist it’s a moot point
Exactly, that’s my point! The only logical conclusion is: your god chose to create evil. You can of course say that it’s necessary for some reason, but IMO unless I can learn this reason there’s no way for your god to actually be all-loving. That’s exactly what abusers do - they say they’re abusing you for your own good, it just has to be this way!
So following your analogy of abusers, if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, gives you the free will to follow it or not, and you don’t, did they abuse you?
Why not? Who made that rule? Once again, it was made by your god. Why did he choose the rules so evil must happen for good to happen?
I get what you’re saying but going back to the first point, this is the only reality we live in. Do you have any response that doesn’t involve rejecting our reality? Can we say based on our current reality the freedom to do evil was necessary for goodness?
None of the positive things we’ve made as humans would have been possible without free thought, not electricity not the internet not architecture. If you want to imagine such a reality where this is possible without the capacity for evil then you’re welcome to but it doesn’t exist, so it serves nothing but avoiding the question
You’re trying to twist the logic towards absolutes. Just because good exists doesn’t mean god is all good, just like evil existing doesn’t mean god is all evil. But evil existing does mean that god is not all good.
So follow that train of thought then, what is the inverse? What are the good things that show god can be good, stack them up against the evil things that show god can be evil (real madadam hours here)
How does heaven and hell factor into the equation? Would you accept that on the day of judgement and a neutral observer rewards the good and punishes the evil and subsequently allows only good onwards then god will be all good in your eyes?
Fair enough, I can accept that. We live in a reality where you cannot have free will and only good at the same time. I can’t imagine anything different so I can’t follow you in that line of thinking, and since no such reality does exist it’s a moot point
Okay, but then why are you claiming your god to be all-powerful? Why do you bind him (and the discussion) by the rules we live by, which he created?
So following your analogy of abusers, if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, gives you the free will to follow it or not, and you don’t, did they abuse you?
No? But if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, and makes someone rape me if I don’t follow it, they did abuse me. That’s the situation here - rapists wouldn’t exist if your god didn’t create the concept of rape. God knew when creating everything that this specific person would specifically rape me because I will choose not to follow gods recommendation. He could have chosen to create the universe so this doesn’t happen, but he didn’t even though he knew.
I get what you’re saying but going back to the first point, this is the only reality we live in. Do you have any response that doesn’t involve rejecting our reality? Can we say based on our current reality the freedom to do evil was necessary for goodness?
Again, why are you binding your all-powerful god by the same rules we live by, when he created the rules?
I’m also not convinced that evil must be possible for free will to exist. God didn’t give us all of his powers - does that mean we don’t have free will? If you can still have free will while being bound to a smaller subsection of choices, we can still have free will while only good is possible, it’s just a matter of degrees.
None of the positive things we’ve made as humans would have been possible without free thought, not electricity not the internet not architecture. If you want to imagine such a reality where this is possible without the capacity for evil then you’re welcome to but it doesn’t exist, so it serves nothing but avoiding the question
If this is indeed true, your god is the reason this reality doesn’t exist, so why can’t I make this logical connection?
So follow that train of thought then, what is the inverse? What are the good things that show god can be good, stack them up against the evil things that show god can be evil (real madadam hours here)
There is no inverse. You can’t show that your god is all good if he created evil. That’s the very center of our disagreement: you claim your god to be all-loving, I claim that he can’t be since he created evil. Your position only works if you follow the abuser logic, or if you break the logic at some point. And breaking the logic is totally fine! That’s what faith is in the end - the belief that something exists beyond our purview and logic. If your god truly exists (and I sincerely hope for you he does, that would be amazing!), he doesn’t have to be bound by our logic. But personally I think it does mean you shouldn’t claim the argument to be debunked :)
How does heaven and hell factor into the equation? Would you accept that on the day of judgement and a neutral observer rewards the good and punishes the evil and subsequently allows only good onwards then god will be all good in your eyes?
No, because he still created evil. I don’t care if child rapists are punished, it doesn’t un-rape the children they raped. God still created the universe knowing these children would be raped. This is an offense that IMO can’t be corrected.
I haven’t forgotten about this, I do intend on responding. I did a lot of thinking about this and I have some verses that will actually prove your point and will respond soon, I am wrong in completely dismissing god’s participation in the evil that happens (objectively evil acts, not just blessings hidden as calamity)
Quran 2:49 ˹Remember˺ how We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh, who afflicted you with dreadful torment, slaughtering your sons and keeping your women. That was a severe test from your Lord.
This verse has no mention of the fact that it’s the Pharoah committing the crimes, god calls it a test from himself directly, confirming your point that god allows evil to exist while being capable of stopping it, which he does through the splitting of the red sea
The following verse: And ˹remember˺ when We parted the sea, rescued you, and drowned Pharaoh’s people before your very eyes.
Divine intervention ending the evil acts being committed, not only by giving the Israelites access through the parting of the red sea but also by collapsing the sea on the Pharoah and his soldiers right in front of them
Intervention to end the enslavement and slaughter could have happened long before but it was allowed to continue as a severe test, so it confirms your point about being all powerful and capable of ending the evil (and he does) yet allowing genocides and sexual assaults to happen
Regarding being all loving, this may be a principle in Christianity but not Islam. God is all merciful but not all loving, outlining what he does love and what he doesn’t, some examples in the spoiler below
I’ve thankfully never experienced sexual assault but I can say with full conviction that the evils that I’ve experienced ultimately ended up being serendipitous, either practically or emotionally. It would be monumentally foolish, ignorant and cruel for me to imply that the hardships you’ve faced were also blessings in some way and I can only speak for myself, but this is the claim being made by the Quran, that our hardships are in fact blessings in disguise. These verses are very famously used to teach this point as the statement is repeated for emphasis
94:5-6 So, surely with hardship comes ease.
Surely with ˹that˺ hardship comes ˹more˺ ease.
TL;DR you’re right, an all powerful god can choose to end evil whenever he wants yet he chooses to let it happen. Whether or not that evil needed to happen is indeed a separate conversation but I agree, this point is definitely not debunked. There’s a lot of verses in the Quran about why evil is allowed to happen (the angels themselves protested against the creation of humanity foreseeing bloodshed and corruption of the earth) but again, that’s a separate conversation
spoiler
2:276 Allah has made interest fruitless and charity fruitful. And Allah does not like any ungrateful evildoer.
3:32 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Obey Allah and His Messenger.” If they still turn away, then truly Allah does not like the disbelievers.
8:58 And if you ˹O Prophet˺ see signs of betrayal by a people, respond by openly terminating your treaty with them. Surely Allah does not like those who betray.
3:146 ˹Imagine˺ how many devotees fought along with their prophets and never faltered despite whatever ˹losses˺ they suffered in the cause of Allah, nor did they weaken or give in! Allah loves those who persevere.
3:76 Absolutely! Those who honour their trusts and shun evil—surely Allah loves those who are mindful ˹of Him˺.
3:31 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “If you ˹sincerely˺ love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive your sins. For Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
Just as an aside these are some of the verses that established my thinking that evil does not come from god but from humanity
4:79 Whatever good befalls you is from Allah and whatever evil befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you ˹O Prophet˺ as a messenger to ˹all˺ people. And Allah is sufficient as a Witness.
42:30 Whatever affliction befalls you is because of what your own hands have committed. And He pardons much.
Fair enough, I can accept that. We live in a reality where you cannot have free will and only good at the same time. I can’t imagine anything different so I can’t follow you in that line of thinking, and since no such reality does exist it’s a moot point
So following your analogy of abusers, if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, gives you the free will to follow it or not, and you don’t, did they abuse you?
I get what you’re saying but going back to the first point, this is the only reality we live in. Do you have any response that doesn’t involve rejecting our reality? Can we say based on our current reality the freedom to do evil was necessary for goodness?
None of the positive things we’ve made as humans would have been possible without free thought, not electricity not the internet not architecture. If you want to imagine such a reality where this is possible without the capacity for evil then you’re welcome to but it doesn’t exist, so it serves nothing but avoiding the question
So follow that train of thought then, what is the inverse? What are the good things that show god can be good, stack them up against the evil things that show god can be evil (real madadam hours here)
How does heaven and hell factor into the equation? Would you accept that on the day of judgement and a neutral observer rewards the good and punishes the evil and subsequently allows only good onwards then god will be all good in your eyes?
Okay, but then why are you claiming your god to be all-powerful? Why do you bind him (and the discussion) by the rules we live by, which he created?
No? But if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, and makes someone rape me if I don’t follow it, they did abuse me. That’s the situation here - rapists wouldn’t exist if your god didn’t create the concept of rape. God knew when creating everything that this specific person would specifically rape me because I will choose not to follow gods recommendation. He could have chosen to create the universe so this doesn’t happen, but he didn’t even though he knew.
Again, why are you binding your all-powerful god by the same rules we live by, when he created the rules?
I’m also not convinced that evil must be possible for free will to exist. God didn’t give us all of his powers - does that mean we don’t have free will? If you can still have free will while being bound to a smaller subsection of choices, we can still have free will while only good is possible, it’s just a matter of degrees.
If this is indeed true, your god is the reason this reality doesn’t exist, so why can’t I make this logical connection?
There is no inverse. You can’t show that your god is all good if he created evil. That’s the very center of our disagreement: you claim your god to be all-loving, I claim that he can’t be since he created evil. Your position only works if you follow the abuser logic, or if you break the logic at some point. And breaking the logic is totally fine! That’s what faith is in the end - the belief that something exists beyond our purview and logic. If your god truly exists (and I sincerely hope for you he does, that would be amazing!), he doesn’t have to be bound by our logic. But personally I think it does mean you shouldn’t claim the argument to be debunked :)
No, because he still created evil. I don’t care if child rapists are punished, it doesn’t un-rape the children they raped. God still created the universe knowing these children would be raped. This is an offense that IMO can’t be corrected.
I haven’t forgotten about this, I do intend on responding. I did a lot of thinking about this and I have some verses that will actually prove your point and will respond soon, I am wrong in completely dismissing god’s participation in the evil that happens (objectively evil acts, not just blessings hidden as calamity)
Thanks for getting back to me, I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
This verse has no mention of the fact that it’s the Pharoah committing the crimes, god calls it a test from himself directly, confirming your point that god allows evil to exist while being capable of stopping it, which he does through the splitting of the red sea
Divine intervention ending the evil acts being committed, not only by giving the Israelites access through the parting of the red sea but also by collapsing the sea on the Pharoah and his soldiers right in front of them
Intervention to end the enslavement and slaughter could have happened long before but it was allowed to continue as a severe test, so it confirms your point about being all powerful and capable of ending the evil (and he does) yet allowing genocides and sexual assaults to happen
Regarding being all loving, this may be a principle in Christianity but not Islam. God is all merciful but not all loving, outlining what he does love and what he doesn’t, some examples in the spoiler below
I’ve thankfully never experienced sexual assault but I can say with full conviction that the evils that I’ve experienced ultimately ended up being serendipitous, either practically or emotionally. It would be monumentally foolish, ignorant and cruel for me to imply that the hardships you’ve faced were also blessings in some way and I can only speak for myself, but this is the claim being made by the Quran, that our hardships are in fact blessings in disguise. These verses are very famously used to teach this point as the statement is repeated for emphasis
TL;DR you’re right, an all powerful god can choose to end evil whenever he wants yet he chooses to let it happen. Whether or not that evil needed to happen is indeed a separate conversation but I agree, this point is definitely not debunked. There’s a lot of verses in the Quran about why evil is allowed to happen (the angels themselves protested against the creation of humanity foreseeing bloodshed and corruption of the earth) but again, that’s a separate conversation
spoiler
2:276 Allah has made interest fruitless and charity fruitful. And Allah does not like any ungrateful evildoer.
3:32 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Obey Allah and His Messenger.” If they still turn away, then truly Allah does not like the disbelievers.
8:58 And if you ˹O Prophet˺ see signs of betrayal by a people, respond by openly terminating your treaty with them. Surely Allah does not like those who betray.
3:146 ˹Imagine˺ how many devotees fought along with their prophets and never faltered despite whatever ˹losses˺ they suffered in the cause of Allah, nor did they weaken or give in! Allah loves those who persevere.
3:76 Absolutely! Those who honour their trusts and shun evil—surely Allah loves those who are mindful ˹of Him˺.
3:31 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “If you ˹sincerely˺ love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive your sins. For Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
Just as an aside these are some of the verses that established my thinking that evil does not come from god but from humanity
4:79 Whatever good befalls you is from Allah and whatever evil befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you ˹O Prophet˺ as a messenger to ˹all˺ people. And Allah is sufficient as a Witness.
42:30 Whatever affliction befalls you is because of what your own hands have committed. And He pardons much.