I voted Stein in Georgia. My vote never belonged to Harris, so me not voting for her has taken nothing away.
Maybe stop assuming people will vote for candidates, and start earning those votes.
Unfortunately, the US’s winner-takes-all voting system makes it so that your (entirely reasonable and otherwise simply correct) mindset leads to what’s called the Spoiler Effect, where a third party vote actually just ends up helping your least favorites. Because of this, the winner-takes-all system inevitably leads to two dominant parties, and being forced to vote for the shiniest of two turds. To fix this, we just need a different voting system. I’m partial to approval voting, but more likely that’d be ranked choice.
I think the confusion here is that Harris voters, even the reluctant ones, see her as an acceptable alternative to Trump. But I don’t. Both of them are so completely unacceptable options for me.
Imagine the election were between Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani. Or Hitler vs Mussolini. Or whatever match up would finally make you say, ‘I can’t possibly support either of these hideous fucks.’ I’m already there with Harris vs Trump.
I’ve seen so many thousands of images and videos this year of children torn to shreds in Gaza. I just can’t fucking do it.
There isn’t a third option.
You get the neoliberal that will be broadly disappointing, and likely perpetuate the situation in Palestine, or you get the open fascist that will make everything far worse - including Palestine, and potentially end US democracy. Both are bad, there’s a yawning chasm of difference between the two.
Your spectacularly priveliged abstaineousness and the false equivalence you’re drawing (even on the single issue you’ve pointed to) in such a critical swing state is cripplingly naiive, and gambles with the lives of who knows how many Palestinians, Ukrainians, and Americans. To sit back and vote for a Russian asset in this context is frankly disgusting.
There are 1,458 days of the election cycle to push for better - there’s only one for keeping the fascists out of power, and you chose not to.
Are we re-using the “we’ll push Biden left” lie again? How’d that work out?
It’s your vote. No one else’s. And Harris didn’t earn it. That’s not your fault. It’s hers, and the Democratic Party.
I feel bad for Americans and kids in general. More fascist radicalization pipelines pop up every single day. The money and effort spent must rival most countries GDPs. Just the media organizations alone…
Some days it can feel like standing at the foot of a mountain watching the entire mountain side crashing down.
Then I realize it’s just people. People we can step up to. And slap in the damn face.
I cringe every time I see this come up.
Because it isn’t what you actually mean, and the horrible logic of it makes it easy for the Lemmy Lefties to dunk on.
Of course a 3rd party vote isn’t a vote for Trump any more than it is a vote for Kamala.
What it actually is is a discarded opportunity to vote against Trump. Which is also dispicable, but actually accurate.
Everyone knows that’s what you mean by this, but the Lemmy Lefties will play dumb and latch onto that logical fallacy every time.
The Dems are running on Trump’s 2020 platform. Build the wall. Lock up immigrants. Both parties are far-right shitholes, and it’s time people started realizing that.
The Dems in 2028 will be calling for mass deportations.
This went so far past just being wrong that it might just end up creating an entirely new paradigm of stupidity.
^ This right here. Exactly my point. They are going to keep telling you Kamala and Trump are the same so you spoil your chance to prevent Trump from taking office again.
They are not subtle, and they do not care about the fallout of a Trump reelection. They are privileged enough that it won’t affect them or their loved ones. It’s despicable.
Cringe
Not everyone lives in a swing state where votes actually matter.
No one is buying the bullshit you have for sale.
Do you know what will definitely NOT help get rid of the electoral college? People wasting their votes on 3rd party spoilers
Do you know what would MORE LIKELY move people to demand the elimination of the electoral college? Harris getting 10 million+ more votes, and Trump either winning the electoral college or attempting a coup based on lies because a swing state was close.
The more votes Harris gets, the clearer the will of the people, the harder it is to pretend there was voter fraud.
“You have to vote for a candidate that refuses to represent you so that people who don’t care about the will of the people will think that you support that candidate.” is a new one.
What a bold and bizarre claim to think there is any winning margin that would repel suspicions.
If Harris wants liberal votes, why is she courting Republicans?
Thank goodness not enough people in “safe” states think that way.
I must have missed that footnote in their rhetoric.
Come on, guy.
Check my history. Vote third party if you don’t live in a swing state is literally what I have been saying.
Ex https://lemmy.ml/post/21262971, https://lemmy.ml/comment/14519387
Good. Tell your Lemmy Lefty buddies to do the same.
I’m not your guy, buddy!
By definition, most people do not live in swing states.
Disclaimers and footnotes are irrelevant.
At least MAGA is honest. Yuck.
Honest lmao
Yeah – they’re proud of their hatred and open about wanting Trump to dismantle the system.
Lemmy Lefties just posture and virtue signal. It’s disgusting.
It’s the trolley problem again. This time, you have 3 tracks and 2 switches. The trolley is headed towards 5 people, one switch sends it to 1 person, and the other switch would send it to 0 people, but it’s broken. Voting third party is pulling the broken switch, knowing the 5 people will die but you’ve shifted the responsibility from yourself to whoever was supposed to fix the switch.
I like your analogy. Let me expand.
This same situation happens every day. For years now, 1 person has died every day. Nobody pulls the broken lever, but if people started pulling it, it would start working. For the first couple days or weeks, 5 people would die each time, but eventually we would be able to get the train on a safe track.
The whole post is an example of a propaganda technique where you keep repeating one thing over and over until it becomes a default thing where people don’t even question the logic.
The ones capable of refuting it feel tired because of the sheer number of posts while the vulnerable ones get affected.
Today both sides “feel” that the use of this propaganda is fair game cuz the other side is already doing it.
Excellent analogy. If anyone still plays dumb after reading this, they probably are
Why do neoliberals bring up the trolley problem as if it is some settled debate among scholars that there is one clear possible answer?
The trolley problem isn’t “settled debate” for the same reasons that Kamala vs Trump isn’t “settled debate”.
The point of the trolley problem and why it’s analogous is that it’s coming up fast and you must choose to either pull that lever or not. Whichever choice you make, that’s the moral character you’ve chosen to exhibit.
What is the moral character of someone incapable of questioning the validity of orphan crushing trolleys?
I’m not a neoliberal, I’m a socialist. I’m just not an idiot who will give a fascist free rein just because his opponent has the same shitty foreign policy as every politician in the whole fucking country has. There is a difference between the status-quo level of bad and catastrophic.
Harris supporters on Lemmy have called for me to be put in a concentration camp.
*Harris supporters with violence fantasies: https://lemm.ee/post/45695948/15722267
Your fears of fascism are ignorant of the capacity that Democrats exhibit.
Harris supporters on Lemmy have called for me to be put in a concentration camp.
Lol no they haven’t.
Gaslighting and Democrats, name a more classic duo.
“I hope I get to watch you suffer the consequences of your actions since you doomed me too”
“That’s a death threat!”
Sure buddy.
Harris supporters on Lemmy have called for me to be put in a concentration camp.
Yah, I’ll take “Things that didn’t happen” for a thousand, Alex. Let me guess, they did the “you’re going to be the most _____ person in the camps” joke and you took offense to the harsh, practical truth of it, so rather than reconsider whatever performative BS you were trying to use to justify voting against a clear and present danger, you decided to do exactly what the right does, and spin natural consequences and hurt feelings to make yourself a victim.
edit: I was absolutely right, 100% accurate. Lets just ignore the clowns, shit’s too serious out there to fuck around with this performative BS.
It’s pretty simple actually, I’m not voting for him.
If you had to vote for Trump or Kamala, which would you choose?
I wouldn’t. I’d stay home.
Not an option in this hypothetical.
Can you answer the simple question?
Why isn’t it an option in this hypothetical? Is there a gun to my head?
I guess I’d either try to spoil my ballot, or just sit there with the pen in my hand until they either shoot me or leave me alone.
Again, the question is Kamala or Trump, no other options.
Can you answer this very simple question?
I just did. My answer is neither.
You’ll have to elaborate on why that isn’t an option in your hypothetical if you don’t accept that.
Do you just not understand what a hypothetical is?
For those reading, the reason Objection won’t answer this very simple question is because they’re smart enough to know exactly where I’m going with it, and they know that it reveals their position as indefensible.
This is the Lemmy Lefty playbook to a T.
“The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing.” But hey, I’m sure those good men felt the same way you do.
That quote is such a funny thing. My mom once quoted it to me as a reason to support the Iraq War. I didn’t even know how to respond to that because it was so completely backwards. The way I saw it, the invasion of Iraq was evil triumphing because good people did nothing to stop it.
That’s how I feel about you saying it to me now. Evil is triumphing in Gaza precisely because people aren’t willing to take a stand on it.
I am doing something. I’m voting for the issues at my doorstep. I have a gay child, and a non-binary child. I have another that is autistic.
If Trump wins, there’s a non-zero chance that my children will be in danger.
I’m also an advocate for the homeless (don’t correct me. I used to be homeless, and we hate “unhoused”),.
I advocate for foster youth, a sector no politician cares about.
All you do is complain about one issue. There’s scores of issues. Jill Stein isn’t happening. Vote in reality, and for reproductive rights, non-cis rights, rights for the homeless, and for someone that will actually win.
I won’t say a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump.
A vote for Jill is the same as not voting. I tell people that didn’t vote “you don’t vote, you don’t have a right to bitch”
Ahhh yes, the oh so helpful stand of not voting for a party that could win.
Like, you do understand that Harris likely means fewer dead Palestinians than trump, yes? This isn’t complicated.
Harris is vice president. There’s a genocide ongoing under her and Biden’s approval. End of the story. She has also repeatedly expressed her lack of will to change the current situation.
I don’t believe in the ideology of lesser evilism. The refusal to hold politicians to any sort of standard whatsoever is a part of why we’re in this situation in the first place.
I don’t believe in the ideology of lesser evilism
That’s a very easy view to hold when you aren’t one of the Palestinians who will die because of people like you making the same choice.
Small comfort to the people whom you pretend to care about.
Do you think the Palestinians in Gaza believe in applying lesser-evilism to the US election? I think it’s the opposite, it’s a very easy view to hold when the people dying under the lesser evil are kept safely out of sight and out of mind. It’s much harder to cradle a dead child in your arms and say, “Well, it could be worse.”
I imagine they’d like fewer bombs as opposed to more bombs, yes.
The best would be zero bombs but nothing you are doing is getting them anywhere closer to that.
But you are, through your choice, helping there be more bombs and more dead.
I was going to have a witty exchange with you and have an example of what you’re doing, but frankly I’m tired.
I’m tired of everything about you people.
So, I’m just going to block you.
Why do people feel the need to publicly announce blocks?
Block me as well. Don’t forget to chant the blocking user hymn in a reply to me!
Sounds like you’re very concerned with the spoiler effect that is inherent with First Past The Post voting.
Feel free to stop by my ask lemmy Post to discuss your post election commitment to replace FPTP voting in your state.
Edit: whew this comment section sure was a trip. You blue conservatives are some of the most terrible people I’ve had the pleasure of talking with. You are just awful people, and I am ashamed of sharing a country with you.
Blue MAGA indeed.
I don’t need any mental gymnastics or long winded explanation. Both of the major party candidates have parts of their platform that are deal breakers for me. So, I will exercise my right to vote for someone that more aligns with my values.
You very much do have the right to do that, as you should. And you don’t have to justify it for any reason.
But IF you have a preference between the R and D candidates, and somebody points out that you mathematically helped the one you dislike by voting third party or staying home, they are still correct. It’s not any kind of moral or ethical thing on its own; it’s just a side effect of how our voting system is designed.
It’s objectively false to say that you “mathematically helped the one you dislike.” If you remove a third party voter from existence, then both major parties receive the same number of votes and have the same chance to win. What you mean to say is that third party votes pass on an opportunity to help/hinder the candidate the voter prefers more/less.
Man…
How many people are you going to get wrecked by before you stop? I’m seriously embarrassed for you.
You have no logical point to make here. And it’s been pointed out to you to the point that you HAVE to be trolling. There’s no other reason for someone to be this stupid unless it’s purely intentional.
all they have to do is point out that they don’t live in a swing state and that’s it, there’s nothing else to say, they just made a strong case and you have no rebuttal
lol
There’s tons to say.
Well, not tons, but a solid-ass rebuttal.
Those states do matter. They only “don’t matter” because everybody in them has historically done and is predicted to do a certain thing. If enough people learn of that prediction, become unmotivated, and don’t do that thing anymore, then those states become swing states which could swing the other way. It’s not guaranteed to always be the way it’s been.
“Blue state” and “red state” aren’t unchanging aspects of the geography, they’re the actions of individuals as seen from an aerial view.
Strongholds fall, and the commanders who act like theirs never could have a way of not writing history.
Strongholds fall, and the commanders who act like theirs never could have a way of not writing history.
And yet, this logic doesn’t apply to unseating the existing parties, for some reason. If Illinois could eventually turn red, then it follows that it could eventually turn green. In either case, it’s just a matter of “enough people” changing their behavior.
The concept that voting for a third-party candidate is somehow “helping” one of the major party candidates is based on the assumption that the third-party candidate’s voters would have otherwise voted for one of the major party candidates.
In vacuum I agree. In the US electoral system voting for a third party is almost the same not voting at all, so it really doesn’t matter if you vote for third party or you vote for nobody. My issue is that in the context of America voting third party makes no sense, especially this election. By voting third party you don’t care who gets elected and it makes no sense to me because who goes “I don’t really care if fascists come into power and start oppressing women and foreigners”. Who the fuck is indifferent to fascism? Apparently third party voters.
I mean, voting third party in America is functionally not voting. I’ll absolutely shit on people for not voting.
It’s worse than not voting. Because of the Spoiler Effect, voting 3rd party actually helps your least favorite major candidate.
I’m not even convinced it’s even real leftists posting this stuff. It often seems like astroturfing. Not only would fake leftists possibly sway undecided voters, but they also tarnish any positivity the left deserves. Win-win for the right.
I’d like to think you’re right.
But I have heard borderline stuff like this in real life from people whom I know are solid progressives. (Admittedly, these are folks on my soccer team who are almost 2 decades younger than me. I can’t imagine what ending their teens during a pandemic was like so I kind of expect their politics to be wildly different.)
“Borderline” is entirely different. Voting for Harris while being salty about it is a perfectly reasonable thing real progressives should do, and it’s exactly the opposite of what these astroturf third-party propagandists are calling for even if the (alleged) sentiment is adjacent. That “border” is a knife edge and the difference between a genuine progressive and a[n effectively] pro-Trump useful idiot comes down to which side of it they fall off.
I haven’t done the math. Assuming full support, is there a 3rd party candidate on the ballot in enough states to actually win?
The last time a 3rd party candidate had an actual shot (and it was a looooong shot at best) was in 1992 when Ross Perot ran. He split the R vote badly enough that it handed the election to Clinton.
So long as we’re using first past the post a 3rd party candidate has a vanishingly small chance of doing anything other than helping elect the opposition.
They aren’t wrong. At least not in spirit. In a non-stupid system they’d be correct at every level.
Until everybody in the conversation understands the contents of that video, you aren’t at the point where you can have the conversation meaningfully. It changes the whole game.
And once they understand it, the remaining conversation may just be a mutual nod of understanding. First past the post is a third party killer, and not because the idiot populace lacks the will. The actual voting math itself is the problem, and ranked choice (or similar) solves the voting math problem in a way that third, fourth, fifth parties can exist and win, instead of debuffing allies and by so doing helping their enemies.
the video learned the wrong lesson. party consolidation is the result of strategic voting. values voting is the solution.
If Democrats really cared about beating Republicans, they would be fighting hard for ranked choice voting. Instead, their primary concern is setting up a scapegoat so they can blame "the left’ if they lose.
This is the scapegoat I’ll always remember:
Did the democratic party ever update their vetting process since she was elected?
Idk. Tbh for me this was a huge turning point of distrust. They had the power and couldn’t get a $15 minimum passed. I’ve since kind of fallen down the “the system is working exactly as designed” rabbit hole. From where I am, I don’t believe a vetting process will really help.
I had this thought after Obama removed the “public option” from the ACA.
I can’t conclusively prove that the Dems claim to support progressive policies but always offer up a Sinema to take the heat for failing…but in the last 15 years I haven’t seen anything that contradicts this theory. When banks need money it’s an emergency and we had better shovel cash out the door without discussion, but when people need help we kick them a month’s rent and then bitch about it for years.
We all already understand how it works. Every single third party voter hears this stuff constantly, from literally everyone. It is impossible to not hear it while telling people you’re voting third party, even if you tried as hard as you could to block it out.
Maybe someday you’ll actually understand then.
Your little party literally cannot win at anything beyond the local level.
Has your third party run for any local positions? No? They only show up in presidential election years?
That tells us they are horrible people who know damn well that they’re helping Trump.
I understand already. The problem is that none of you understand or have any interest in engaging with what third party voters actually believe or why we reject your arguments, you just want to repeat the same BS over and over in hopes that we fall in line.
The only people who are helping Trump are Trump voters, because that’s how votes work.
That’s not how votes work. And I’m not going to explain it to you because EVERONE here already has. You have absolutely no intention to argue in good faith at this point.
In FPTP, any vote not for one, is an assist for the other. Period. End of story. Case closed. No more debate on it.
That you’re here to continue arguing with people illustrates that you’re not here to discuss it in good faith at all.
Therefore, I’d ask anyone reading along to just disregard this person as a bad faith actor and don’t engage with them any further on this.
Liberals explaining how “harm reduction” means voting but never demanding anything while calling anyone who criticizes them a “Russian bot”:
Liberals during election time: VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO
Liberals during the rest of the 4 years:Third party voters during election time: RHEEEEEEE! I refuse to vote because of [CURRENT ISSUE THEY HEARD ABOUT FROM A FRIEND IN PHYS ED]
Third part voters the rest of the four years:
Wait… What issue?Liberals during the rest of the 4 years: Still getting beaten by police trying to change the system
I’m sure electing a cop will change everything.
It sounds like it’s young people (under 25) who don’t understand exactly how bad it will be if trump wins.
I’ve survived a lot of shit presidents. Trump is the first one who actually scares me.
Hopefully they will do the right thing when it comes time to actually vote.
Are these Schrodinger’s young people who simultaneously don’t vote, but also single-handedly tip the entire election?
Germany’s first time voters helped the far-right (Nazi) party AfD getting a lot of votes in the EU elections recently. AfD’s TikTok game (with Russia’s support) is very strong. Go figure.
It must be them ruskies! And the brainless, easily brainwashed young people’s fault! Seriously some of you need stop being tools and get a grip
If every young person voted, the Republican party would collapse until it took a hard left turn. This is not a paradox.
If wishes were fishes we’d all be in the sea?
If anything, lefties shouldn’t be a single issue voter at all. They should be picking someone who might move toward that direction and have the chance to win, not abstaining.
As the famous word goes: Evil triumph when good men do nothing. You can’t abstain or do protest vote and expect anything to change under Trump, that single issue you hold so important will get worst, or even impossible.
Jay Shapiro explains this well in a video:
TL:DW?
In this video, I challenge the dismissive label of ‘single-issue voting’. I break down how a focus on an issue like genocide reveals deeper political and moral stakes, rejecting the idea that elections are merely a choice between the ‘lesser of two evils,’ and offering my reasoning—and hope—for refusing to play the game.
Well this “single issue” of land stealing, white supremacist subjugation of a people on their native land, ethnic cleansing and genocide, has only gotten worse with every election.
If we look at AIPAC they arent powerful because they influence who wins. They are powerful because they onfluence who looses.
That is why being pro genocide remains a staple of both parties policies. The only way to change that, is to punish the side that claims to not be pro genocide generally, so it has to become against genocide specifically.
And we had one year of trying to do that before the election, where people here and in othernplace vigorously defended being pro genocide, as challenging that before the election would be bad for the election.
We saw with Biden stepping down that challenging the dementia candidate was actually beneficial for the Democrats election chances, despite the same denial and backlash over pointing out Bidens failing mental capacities.
Now i am sure that these sentiments of immediately attacking people who wanted the Democrats to become a non genocide party when it was still possible to achieve that for the election, were stirred by AIPAC and other establishment actors, who would rather have Trump win than end genocide or get to meaningful progressive politics like proper healthcare and workers rights.
Can’t believe I missed you when I blocked all your little friends.
Why do people feel the need to publicly announce blocks?
Block me as well. Do not forget the blocking user ceremonial reply to my comment!
But Palestine hurr Durr
You dumb fucks know how many more Palestine’s there’s gonna be if he gets in? You can kiss Ukraine goodbye, and probably hong kong too. This is nothing.
2016-2020 was the beta test. If this goes into production we’re all fucked.
