Its… not entirely clear if the homeowner woman initially invited the doordash woman in, or if the doordash woman more or less barged her way in…
But… yeah.
This whole situation is beyond fucked.
The Gestapo is here, and they’re coming to your house next.
… What will you do?
How will history judge that?
Is there some kind of immediate legal aid number you can call if something like this is happening?
I think her call to the police was correct. They did nothing, but it’s possible they could have sent someone to at least mediate and deescalate while a warrant was coming through (if one was ever going to arrive). Also they could verify these are actual law enforcement people. With people running around masked and no badges and unmarked cars how the fuck would you know otherwise.
But after that having a lawyer on the phone seems like the next ideal step?
Is there some kind of immediate legal aid number you can call if something like this is happening?
No, not unless you know a cell of armed anarchists with a hotline, 80s horror movie animal masks, and a ‘party’ van.
Help! Government! Save me from the government!
No. No there’s no help line when the government is fully armed and fully tyrannical. Everyone else’s hands are tied.
The woman homeowner screaming so intently and so loudly was actually the most important thing that happened.
Because it attracted the general community, who slowly, but surely, began to filter in, then crowd in, with whistles, amplifying the general call to respond, essentially intimidating ICE by way of their being too many witnesses and potentially starting to outnumber them.
There’s no fucking hotline, there’s only people with a sense of duty to each other, trustworthy neighbors.
Here’s the actual legality of the situation:
If ICE doesn’t have a signed, JUDICIAL warrant, which they present to the homeowner, not an Administrative warrant, which they can auto produce for themselves…
… they’re not allowed in the house.
Almost everything ICE is doing is completely illegal.
You can get a signed Judicial warrant, and specifically go after a specific person.
You cannot randomly pull people out of their delivery cars because they are brown.
They could possibly stop her and her family and nab them out of the car, if they specifically had a signed Judicial warrant for specifically her or her family (who was in the car with her)… but they almost never do, which means almost everything they are doing is illegal, making them actually a well organized and government backed criminal organization.
No, not unless you know a cell of armed anarchists with a hotline, 80s horror movie animal masks, and a ‘party’ van.
This reminds me of the cafe scene from the Great Escape. That’s gotta be really satisfying for those French dudes.
Help! Government! Save me from the government!
That’s not what I meant. I meant like does the ACLU or other organization have some number you can call if you think something illegal is happening to you by the government.
Of course the Government wouldn’t have anything.
Oh, you mean to file a complaint after the crime has been committed, ok.
ACLU: For national intake, you can file online via their civil liberties complaint form: American Civil Liberties Union You may also call their national office at (212) 549-2500 or toll-free at (888) 567-ACLU.
… and, that’s it! Nobody else has a phone number.
Well, other than if you want to call ICE or DHS or the DOJ and file a complaint with them, and ask them to investigate themselves.
Which is hopefully obviously laughably stupid.
There may be more local organizations with more local contact methods, I have no idea.
I meant during. Guess not.
Well maybe you can stop pretending to be some kind of legal and civics expert now…
Or are you still certain, as you were yesterday, that ICE was justified and acting legally when they uh, initiated the ‘traffic stop’ with Renee Good?
Am I gonna just have to keep correcting your misinformation, answering questions that can be solved by a web search in 30 seconds?
what? I was asking if there was a legal aid hotline they could call if their rights were being violated and you’re the one who jumps to can i call the government and starts going off the rails.
And for the record.
Law enforcement does not need any legal justification to approach someone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_v._Royer
While it is legal for authorities to target and approach a person based on their behavior, absent more, they cannot detain or search such individual without a warrant or probable cause.
She was blocking the roadway. He didn’t pull her vehicle over, she was already there, stopped. Ross then stopped his vehicle, and approached it. I don’t even think he even said a single word to her until the other officers arrived, nor did he try to stop her from leaving at first. There is nothing illegal about that.
The second ICE officers arrived, and then started barking orders, and tried to detain her by entering the vehicle. If they had no authority based on obstructing/impeding THIS is where anything illegal begins.
Florida vs Royer is a yardstick that measures the legitimacy of a detention, search, or seizure.
It does not broadly grant any extra jurisdictional powers.
Its irrelevant to ‘did ICE have legal authority to approach the vehicle.’
ICE do not have any legal justification to give a shit about a blocked roadway, unless it is specifically impeding a specifically authorized judicial warrant they are executing.
ICE, lately, generally doesn’t execute legitimately authorized judicial warrants.
They execute administrative warrants.
Which specifically only grant them legal abilities directly tied to the person or place they are investigating or apprehending.
Normally, they are screened/escorted by the local police, because things like random traffic impediments can happen, and that’s the local police’s jurisdiction to deal with.
But they weren’t.
They had no legal authority, from an administrative warrant, to approach her vehicle.
If you want to argue that they do, then you are arguing that ICE has the legal ability to approach and question anyone, anywhere within … an unknown radius of the specific area laid out in the administrative warrant.
Thats the definition of a police state.
The whole point of the trade off between a judicial and adnimistrative warrant is that an admin warrant can be issued more rapidly, only requires clearing a lower bar … but its limited in temporal and physical scope to where it applies, whereas a judicial warrant must clear a higher bar, but grants LEOs broader powers.
Uhhh the last few seconds were… she shouldn’t have said that she would kill all of them “you don’t know who I am”.
The screaming rant about TikTok followers was pretty cringy.
…cringey? That’s eleven THOUSAND people she can inform immediately, and hopefully spreads exponentially. That’s the power she has, so she’s telling them during a desperate situation. That’s not cringey. What you just said is.
I heard about it because my wife uses TT, it’s the first time I’ve seen it hit lemmy.
She was obviously trying to project to the agents that all of this was going public. That people were going to know, more people than they could silence before it got out… and it got out…
Making comments, like yours, is just, bleh. She wasn’t trying to ego boost, she was making a threat to protect herself and the doordasher.
Yes was also very cringe to me. But I understand that this might be scary for the ICE
This is some straight up NAZI shit for real.
Yall got any of them
jewsnative Americans in your attic?
Props to that woman for not giving into the fear and standing her ground.
We’re going to need a lot of people like her
This made me physically ill watching. This also proves 2 things.
First, don’t let these fuckers on your property without a signed warrant. They can’t do anything if you stand your ground like these people.
2nd, the police will not protect you. Even the cops on the phone told them just hand her over.
Stand your ground, ask for a signed warrant and don’t listen to their fake ass threats of harboring.
Stand your ground, ask for a signed warrant
This is the best we have for now, but a month ago they weren’t shooting people in the streets, I think they’re up to 5 now. I suspect they’ll be busting doors in before midterms hit.
They are busting doors in now.
I actually thought the cops were going to arrive to maybe mediate until a warrant was available, just to help de-escalate.
The cops were never not going to side with ICE though.
Here’s another angle. If what they were doing was legal and by the books, they would already have a judicial signed warrant. All this bullshit they scream about getting the warrant…or it’s on the way, is complete bullshit. There is no judicial warrant, and there will not be a judicial warrant issued to enter your property because almost every one of these people they are after are not committing a crime that justifies an instant bench warrant.
they would already have a judicial signed warrant.
I don’t think that’s true? They could have a judicial warrant for her arrest, but I don’t think that includes any ability to enter her residence?
That would need to be a 2nd warrant wouldn’t it?
To my knowledge, a signed judicial warrant does grant them access to enter their property, but I don’t know if that means all property or just the home of who is getting served the warrant.
If anything, I would think then this family could have been legally charged with harboring a fugitive, but I’m unsure if that gives authorities the right to bust down any door to get to them.
From what i understand the warrant has to be specific. It would need their address.
If it was the home address of the target, but not the address of the person’s house they ran into, i think it’s useless, other than to at least prove to the person there is a legitimate warrant out for them, which could change their behaviour.
Like if someone had a judicial warrant for them, but not with my address on it, I’d probably act differently than if they didn’t have one at all.
But wouldn’t the “easy” thing in that case be to just fuck off, go to her house in the middle of the night, and arrest her there with the warrent, instead of wasting time like this?
I mean, if they have a warrent they’re bound to know who she is, and I doubt this door dasher is some criminal mastermind who is going to fake their death and disappear completely during the next few hours.
How the hell do you even verify a warrant? I still wouldn’t consent to a search. I wouldn’t resist, sure, but I ain’t opening the door.
This slide presentation from ACLU Minnesota covers that, as well as other essential know-your-rights information. Share it around with those who may need it.
https://www.aclu-mn.org/app/uploads/2017/03/ice_kyr_master_updated_4.15.pdf
Short version: make sure it’s from a US District Court and signed by a judge, not an immigration officer.
Wtf even is an ICE warrant?
Seems like it holds absolutely no authority???
It’s internal DHS paperwork masquerading as something with the force of law. So, yes.
should be illegal to make that look like a legal warrant.
Should have giant fucking disclaimer at the top
THIS IS NOT A LEGAL WARRANT
Also, know your damn rights. Notice that they didn’t leave until she specifically said that they did not have permission to be on her property.
Law enforcement is considered to have implicit permission to come to your house, provided you have a route of access that is publicly accessible, like a sidewalk or a driveway (that isn’t gated). But that implicit permission is overridden if you explicitly withdraw permission. It’s good that they knew not to let them in without a warrant (though they didn’t have to open the door, or even answer it), but you also need to say “You do not have permission to be on my property.” No matter how much you cuss them out, if you don’t say it, it doesn’t count.
There is an exception for cases of “hot pursuit,” like if they see somebody kill someone and run into a house, they don’t need a warrant. But there’s a lot of restrictions on that and they’re probably not going to bother trying to get your consent in the first place if they have that.
Obviously that only goes as far as the law applies. Unrelated, but another right you should know is the right to bear arms.
There is an exception for cases of “hot pursuit,” like if they see somebody kill someone and run into a house, they don’t need a warrant.
Just to clarify, the person doesn’t have to have murdered someone. They just have to be a suspect of a felony. The officers have to have reasonable suspicion of the felony and have to have continuously chased them to the residence. This is called exigent circumstances, which allows for limited exceptions to the 4th amendment. Other such exigent circumstances include reasonable suspicion of imminent harm of an occupant of the residence, or destruction of evidence of a crime (does not have to be a felony crime).
The Harboring laws vary state to state, so know your local laws. In Minnesota where this happened, they were not at legitimate risk of a harboring charge. The only crime they had reason to think she was suspected of was illegal entry into the US (a misdemeanor, btw), and they had reason to believe that she was actually a legal resident as she provided her id to them. Without actual knowledge of a crime or reason to suspect a crime had been committed by her (which again, any initial suspicion was subsided by the ID), they could not be convicted of harboring. Given that, the 4th amendment holds sway and they would need a judicial warrant for the address she was occupying in order to enter without consent of the owners of the residence.
Everything that happened here was likely legal from all parties, even if the ICE agents were a bit passively threatening. The one exception may be if they actually entered their backyard, especially within the gated area without permission (the guy says they were going around back, but I didnt see any agents approaching or crossing their property from the back, so I cant confirm). That would still be criminal trespass on the agents then. They only have implicit permission to enter the curtilage of the property and approach via the most direct route to the publically accessible door to talk to the residents. This is the knocking doctrine. They have as much right to enter the property to knock on your door as any other private individual. But no more right than that without a warrant.
Is holding their guns on her property not some sort of threatening issue? No warrant, no permission, and brandishing a weapon?
Unfortunately, the police are often a lot of latitude on their conduct related to “officer safety”. For example, there’s a lot of what would otherwise be unlawful commands that have been carved out specifically in the name of officer safety. Such as asking a driver to “exit their vehicle”, telling detainees to “keep hands visible and out of pockets”, telling bystanders “do not approach my investigation” or “stands where I can see you”, etc.
The latitude given is a recognition that they are ostensibly agents acting in the interests of the state and that their role comes with inherent risks in the course of performing their job that they and the state have an interest in mitigating. As such, they should be able to take minimally invasive measures to control the behavior of those involved with or near their active investigations to protect themselves. Given that, without them issuing an active threat of unreasonable violence (like “say that again and I’ll kill you”), simply having their hands on their weapons, or unholtering them when approaching a residence with limited visibility that they otherwise don’t have the authority to order everyone out of is probably well within the latitude given to law enforcement.
damn, that sucks.
Also I don’t even know wtf I would do if they had unholstered them. That would be insane.
You should remember that if you are in a similar situation, what the law says may or may not matter. If a law enforcement officer is going to break the law and his colleagues do not stop them right then and there, for your personal safety it is usually in your best interest to comply as minimally as possible, but protest loudly and often about it. Make it clear that you are complying only under threat of violence or arrest. If the justice system works as it should, you can hopefully get compensation for having your rights violated and hopefully consequences for the violator (though qualified immunity is a bitch, so… don’t get your hopes up too high). But if you fail to comply and have your body permanently damaged or lose your life, there’s no true compensation for that. Take care of yourself first.
The most important tip I have to ensure that your case is taken seriously in a case like this is to record absolutely everything you can. At your first possible opportunity, submit an official complaint against the officer with as many details as you can ACCURATELY recall (do not lie, exaggerate, or include any information that you arent certain about. If they have footage disputing your claims, that may be entirely damning to your case) and a FOIA request for all information and body camera footage from your interaction as well. If you were hurt, seek out medical treatment for any injuries you sustained, no matter how seemingly minor at the time, and have them thoroughly documented. Seek out legal representation (some legal organizations exist specifically to combat abuses of the state, like the ACLU. Contact them and others directly too), and actually sue. It will take up a lot of your time for months or years, but the only way you get justice is to put in the work. Spread the body came footage and your own as far and wide as possible. Contact the local news with your story, post the videos online, send the videos to police critical youtubers that have a following and can boost awareness, and generally make it impossible to ignore for the city. As bullshit as it is, you will probably have to have the backing of overwhelming evidence of police misconduct AND public outrage in order to actually receive justice.
And sometimes that doesnt matter anyway. You also have to remember that law enforcement are only limited by the law in as much as others hold them to the law. If their coworkers, leadership, and the justice system do not enforce the law against law enforcement, then nothing prevents them from breaking the law. Protect yourself accordingly. That is the most important thing.
They can’t do anything if you stand your ground like these people
No, they still can. It’s not legal (for whatever that’s worth these days), but they can absolutely just bust down your door anyway. We need to start treating them like they lawless criminals they are.
The system will not save you, at least not immediately. You might get let go later, after they’ve sufficiently punished your resistance, but that’s it.
Properly signed JUDICIAL warrant.
All this and Trumps approval rating is still above 40%. Says alot
Those 40% either never heard of this or already dismissed it as fabricated. These people don’t see the same news as you.
Don’t discount the significant percentage of Americans that are perfectly aware of this and approve of it.
The 40% think they are in the fascist in-group. Many are finding out now they are actually in the out-group.
Funny thing about that. Happens to all the in-groups at some point, at all levels.
Ask Caesar if he was in the in-group.
Exactly. That and the “they came for us” poem is too Nazi/Germany coded for a lot of folks, and they fail to see how it applies.
I’ll go as far as to say that 40% of everyone has never been bullied, or did/does try to avoid it by conforming.
This was a lesson I learned at age 9. You get bullied for whatever reason, so you try and change your behavior on the basis of the bullying. Hair, clothes, accent, likes, dislikes, whatever. The following week, the reason you get bullied changes or you outright get bullied for changing. Why? It’s about power, exercising that power, and abusing others; the bully has a bottomless pit somewhere in their psychology and abuse makes them feel better about it. It was never about the stated reason. You can never make this stop by accommodation, and by all accounts, can only make things worse.
The thing is, it’s really impossible to come to a logical conclusion of what the word “significant” represents in your reply. What does a “significant percentage” mean to you?
I’m not saying that there aren’t some Americans out there with really shitty views, but how do you actually decide what percentage of the population they are? What’s the end result of your statement here? What’s the point of you making this comment here?
Idk, I’m just exhausted by these types of statements in general. These “don’t forget that a lot of people are terrible!” suggestions from the sidelines. These “why are you upset, it’s not surprising!” statements… as if there’s any insight here.
I’m fucking frustrated too. I just think that the first step to becoming evil or indifferent to evil is believing that that’s just how most people are.
It is the vast majority of the 30% of the US population that voted for Trump. None of what he is doing today is a surprise, this is what he said he was going to do and it’s what they wanted.
For me at least, I’m wanting to focus our efforts beyond the goal of simply educating the unaware. A huge amount of effort over the last 8+ years has been in “awareness”. That if we simply made people aware of the bad stuff, that they’d correctly see it as bad and would want to take action.
It’s an entirely different problem we face when people are aware of the bad stuff and either don’t care or actively support it. The ‘solution’ can’t simply be awareness campaigns and the hope that people will react the way we want them to. We have to do something actually effective.
This is it. There are certainly some that support it but most just deny outright the possibility that it’s real. We’ve fallen so far so fast that they just refuse to believe it.
That’s either the idiots who don’t follow politics and then there’s the Nazis. That accounts for anything over 2%.
regular people trying to earn honest money, even with dogshit wages–and these are the people they’re trying to convince you are the “terrorists”
I’ve seen this somewhere before… In a history textbook, I think…
These Brown Shirts think they won’t be given the “Night of the Long Knives” treatment.
10/10 would burrito the baby & doggo in bulletproof vests.
On the reddit thread yesterday (I had to go check because this video was so disturbing to me), someone said she was one of the neighbors who heard all the commotion and a bunch of neighbors came and escorted the Dasher to safety. So I’m clinging to that.
This reminds me of NOTHING except FREEDOM!
-People with Don’t Tread On Me Stickers who get Upset when you call them Nazis!
