Some worry that New York City’s crackdown on unsafe cyclists leaves them facing greater consequences than drivers, even though cars cause more fatalities.
This is car culture logic. Here in the UK cyclists are regarded with the same vengeful attitude by drivers. Red lights are primarily a traffic control feature and it’s dangerous to drive through them as a car driver. This isn’t the case with a bicycle, due to the visibility a cyclist has and its light weight. It’s also a non issue to ride one way streets because a bike is much smaller and more manoeuvreable. Cyclists should be celebrated for reducing traffic, emissions, particulate and noise pollution but the opposite is true, everywhere people speak English because this is a mental disease afflicting anglophones. They are addicted to cars.
If they can catch me, nyoom.
Paywalled link
No? It’s a gift article.
Commenters here are missing the reason police are issuing court summons:
Some advocates for delivery workers say that the increased scrutiny of cyclists weighs especially heavily on an already vulnerable group. Many people who ride electric bikes in New York are undocumented migrants working for restaurants and food delivery apps, said Ligia Guallpa, the executive director of Los Deliveristas Unidos, which represents delivery workers. The crackdown on electric bikes and scooters comes in the midst of the Trump administration’s aggressive enforcement of immigration law.
Sal Cohen is among the immigrants who received a pink court summons connected to the increased enforcement effort. Originally from Turkey, and in the United States on a conditional green card, Mr. Cohen had not heard about the push when he rolled through a red light at the intersection of Grand Street and Union Avenue in Brooklyn’s Williamsburg neighborhood on his way home from the gym this month.
A squad car pulled up alongside him and he was issued a summons.
A week and a half later, Mr. Cohen, 28, stood in line outside Courtroom No. 3, on the 16th floor of the municipal building, worried that ICE agents might appear.
“I’m here legally, but you never know,” he said. “I’m nervous.”
So, new edition of the “war on drugs” I see.
Everyone should read the words of one of Nixon’s top aides regarding why they started the war on drugs:
“The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people,” former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman told Harper’s writer Dan Baum for the April cover story published Tuesday.
“You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities,” Ehrlichman said. “We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
And yet the wikipedia entry for the war on drugs starts like this:
The war on drugs is a global anti-narcotics campaign led by the United States federal government, including drug prohibition, foreign assistance, military intervention, and counterterrorism, with the aim of reducing the illegal drug trade in the US.
Emphasis added. I would say that is flat out false. It may be the openly stated aim, but it is not the true aim, and they’ve admitted it. Just another reminder that these fascists know exactly what the fuck they’re doing and that wikipedia is subject to propaganda influences.
Exactly
Still it also hurts working cyclists who are documented.
Just like in the example.
that’s a bonus. just transphobic bills having a bonus effect against women. it’s all good!
We need to fight back again oppression of bike riders. Electric bikes are genuine revolution in transportation, more so than electric cars even.
Imagine if people started using ebikes to get around their town/hood…
All the lostr profits for the car and oil industry 🤡
And the Gym industry, and the Healthcare industry, and the Tow Truck industry…
So many losses.
Harder and moar!
I want an ebike to get to the gym.
Why the gym? I don’t really go to the gym for cardio, I go for weights and other equipment that I don’t have in my house. I’d assume a majority aren’t there just for cardio, though maybe I’m wrong.
I don’t go to the gym, because I stay reasonably fit commuting by bike. Not everyone wants to gain a super muscled frame.
This is exactly what’s happening in Western Europe, from Sweden to small islands in Italy, from Paris to the country side in Brittany, habits are changing. It’s slower than I’d hope for but bike lanes are being setup, electric batteries are charged from solar panels on roofs, elderly get autonomy again. There is no need to imagine, we’re doing it! :D
Looking at getting one myself!
Unpopular opinion, both sides should stop running fucking red lights.
Cars running red lights = driver slamming on the gas trying to beat the yellow. 3000kg of steel and glass travelling at 60+km/hr in a crowded city
Bikes “running” red lights = riders looking both ways and coasting through when it’s clear… 100kg of flesh and aluminium going 10km/hr
These are not even remotely close to the same levels of danger…
So while everyone should follow the rules, enforcement should focus on those with the potential to do the most damage
Bikes “running” red lights = riders looking both ways and coasting through when it’s clear
FWIW this is not how it works in Philadelphia. Here, a lot of cyclists just sail through red lights and stop intersections without stopping first and without even looking to see if there’s any cross-traffic first. As an avid cyclist myself, it absolutely blows my mind how often they do this and somehow avoid dying. There are a lot of bike fatalities here, but it’s almost always the result of large trucks turning right across bike lanes and flattening somebody they never saw.
without stopping first
That’s normal. Coasting through at low speed uses much less energy than coming to a stop and good bike infrastructure takes that into account. Cars and pedestrians can stop and start easily, bikes, very much not so, so you design intersections, any conflict point, such that bikes merely slow down. The Dutch are brilliant at this with traffic lights which can actually detect who’s coming.
My personal approach to cycling is that I never expect anyone to notice me, a result of decades of practice with semi-sensible German bike infrastructure. Yes I’m going to cross on red but noone will have to change their behaviour, react to me in any way. Be like water.
There are a lot of bike fatalities here, but it’s almost always the result of large trucks turning right across bike lanes and flattening somebody they never saw.
Yep don’t be there. Even if they’re looking out for pedestrians those are slow, you are fast(er), which means that in the time between them looking and them turning you can make it from invisible to the danger zone.
Side note right turns should not be allowed on red, at least not without a sign specifically allowing it at a particular intersection. In 99.9% of cases it’s unsafe.
Sure, there are those crazy bike messenger types blowing through red lights at full speed
But thats not the majority of offenders. And still nowhere NEAR the danger of cars doing the same thing, even at lower speeds.
These are E-bikes we’re talking about. They can be quite fast. Some can do 50-60 even. Killing people is certainly possible. Requiring both to obey traffic signals, isn’t unreasonable.
Pretty sure in the EU they are supposed to be limited to 25kmh, which is the upper speed limit for bike lanes too
They don’t so much have a speed limit but they’re required to stop giving you a boost at 25 km/h. Anything that uses a motor to go faster needs a license plate and everything.
At least in Germany bike lanes don’t have a speed limit, you can drive as fast as you want as long as it’s safe, you’re in control, etc. Especially relevant when going downhill.
Sunday or leisurely drivers will go 10 to 25km/h, when you’re fit, the road surface is good and the bike built for it sustaining 35km/h isn’t much of an issue, fastest I ever went on my mountain bike with semi-slicks (so no racing transmission but no unnecessary friction losses either), on flat ground, was 38km/h. But that’s pushing it for the sake of pushing it, my average top speed is just over 30. No lycra, no race bike.
Speed-pedelecs are allowed to go 45kmh and are allowed both on bike lanes and car lanes in the Netherlands. They have a license plate as well, looks like a regular ebike.
In that case the Netherlands is ignoring EU law, which now very clearly defines a regular e-bike: 25km/h, 250W max output, no throttle.
PS: clarification - if they have a license plate then obviously they’re not regular e-bikes. Seems to me crazy to just allow them in bike lanes.
This is the same as in Belgium, where the faster e-bikes are counted as light mopeds. Max speed of 45km/h, and they must use the bike lane whenever the road speed limit exceeds 50km/h, and the road if not. Most of our city centers are 30km/h speed limit, which also counts for these e-bikes, just as all other motorized traffic.
In Belgium I saw petrol mopeds on bike lanes as well
I’ll take a hit from an ebike over a speeding car any day of the week
I would take a hit from a jogger over a person on an ebike any day of the week.
I’ll take a hit from the bong over a jogger any day of the week.
They also weigh as much as their rider sometimes. Easily 300+ lbs with a full grown man on them.
Please show me an ebike that weighs 150 lbs…
Easier to show you a full grown man who weighs 300+ pounds all by himself …
I weigh 225 and an Aventon that fits me is 75. 300.
Great example for a bike that “weighs as much as the rider” genius.
Yes, if we compare the most dangerous example of a driver running a red light with the safest example of a cyclist doing so, the driver looks worse.
Obviously cars running red lights is more dangerous but this is pretty disingenuous way to frame it.
Ok, lets do the worst case scenario for a bike…the bike BLOWS through the intersection at 60km/h like those crazy bike messengers on youtube… It still has only a tiny fraction of the kinetic energy of a car and low probability of killing or maiming someone.
Have you seen a person get hit by a bike at 60km/h? Watch pro bike racing. It happens once in a while (opi omi lady) . Most of the time the victim gets up and walks away. Worst case they end up in the hospital with broken bones.
Have you seen a person get hit by vehicle at 60? I haven’t (thank god) but 25% chance of death and 50% chance of severe injury (i would imagine life altering)
People should not be licenced to operate a vehicle if they cant understand basic physics and the VAST gap in danger between drivers not following the rules and cyclists not following the rules
I agree completely.
10 kph is about 6 mph, which is walking speed. Cycling would be closer to twice that, or more.
Nah, walking speed is ~5kph, and a good pace on a bike is about 20kph
That’s 4x the speed and thus 16x the kinetic energy. It’s quite a big difference.
Yes, like I said, cycling would be closer to 20 kph, which is twice 10 kph.
Your point?
The numbers they pulled out of their ass are off by at least a factor of two.
You’re missing the larger issue here. They are punishing people running red lights in a way that doesn’t make sense given the danger each group poses. That’s the key issue here. Poor enforcement.
Then lights should turn green for my bike, instead of me having to wait for a car to active the sensor on order to cross.
Some sensors in my city detect my bike, some only detect it if I tilt it almost right against the ground, and some don’t detect it at all.
You bet I’ll gladly run a red light if it won’t ever turn green for me.
In my city, I can trigger a traffic signal on my bike by going on the coil that senses the car. This is probably intentional given that the city also puts markings to show that bikes can trigger the sensor, though it does not appear to be any sort of special sensor. No idea if it’s natural that the coil can detect my bike or whether my city specifically tubed the system to detect bikes.
It used to be that those coils had trouble detecting motorbikes
I was gonna say I had to park my motorcycle at intersections and hit the crosswalk button before.
Both lights at the end of my residential street cannot detect my motorbike. If I’m heading out from home and there’s no cars around I’m essentially trapped (legally) since they’ve also banned right on red turns in my city.
I’ve had those work in other cities, but not this one. I’m also not going to dismount to push a button with a toddler on the back.
Next you’re going to say #AllLivesMatter
Indeed all lives matter, but the All Lives Matter is a strawman movement that misses the point
Name one person who thinks the opposite
So brave.
I doubt that’s unpopular.
It should be, because it’s actually less safe for bikes to come to a full stop at red lights and stop signs.
Safer when it is legalized. If I as a driver know bikes are allowed to go through stops, then I expect it and adjust accordingly. If it’s not legal then I expect them to stop like everyone else and am surprised when they don’t.
Very interesting and counterintuitive.
It is at first, but it makes sense when you consider that bikes take longer to come up to speed than cars do, and have a much more limited capacity to get out of the way when they’re not at speed. So if you make bikes lose and regain that speed many times while riding, multiplied by many bikers, eventually one of them is going to wind up encountering a driver that’s not paying attention while they’re leaving a stop sign.
I’m sure that’s not the only reason, but I’d be surprised if it wasn’t a reason.
These are E-bikes. Some are practically low power motorcycles. All that is also true for motorcycles, they have to obey traffic signals.
Where are motorcycles limited to 25 kph, the way bicycles (including e-bikes) are? There is also an inherent weight difference between a motorcycle and a bike, even an e-bike, which changes how dangerous they are.
Your source says that bikes should still come to a full stop at red lights though?
Doesn’t mean you can’t proceed after stopping despite the light still being red. It says that is better than actually obeying the red light and stopping till it turns green.
Nobody said they couldn’t. The comment I was responding to said that studies show that it’s safer for bikes to not come to a full stop at red lights, and I correctly pointed out that that’s completely false.
Edit: you yourself wrote a comment saying basically the exact same thing I did - why the heck are you trying to nitpick me here?
Yeah, just clarifying.
Edit: I’m not trying to be hostile; I’m just trying my best to be helpful… Please tell me if there’s something I could improve on.
You realize that stop signs and stop lights are two completely different traffic controls and are used in completely different traffic situations, right?
Did you have a point? Data shows it’s safer to cyclists to yield and not stop at both.
treat traffic lights as stop signs*
Shit, problem solved. Sometimes we need a genius idea to figure things out
The bicycle infrastructure is decades behind the Europeans, especially the Netherlands and the large cities in Germany. For example, there are traffic signals controlling bicycle traffic. The other problem, the lawyers can defend an idiot running red lights on a bicycle.
I sympathise with the message but cycle infrastructure in German cities is bad to the extent there are parody songs about it
especially […] the large cities in Germany
Laughing and crying in Berlin here after just three near death experiences on my way to work.
Surely it’ll get better now that modal filters across residential streets were declared illegal.
Running them, or using the Idaho Stop? Huge difference.
But even still, if the consequences for cyclists are greater than those for drivers, then something is seriously messed up.
Right-turn on red is enough to get a ticket, even if both streets have bike lanes. Don’t ask me how I know…
its more expensive to have court dates than tickets.
For who?
Anyone with a job that has to take time away from it to attend. Most tickets aren’t likely to exceed that lost time.
So new edition of the “war on drugs” I see.
War on the poor
There should be a process where the rider can accept blame and pay a fine without spending a day in court. That also sounds like a waste of court resources, to be honest.
I think cyclists should be treated the same as drivers in so far as possible. And that includes obeying traffic signs, issuing of tickets and so on. I’ve almost been run over by cyclists who run red lights or go the wrong way up one way streets. It’s small consolation that a bike is “lighter” than a car if it still means some 120kg asshole slams into you because rules are for other people.
Really? Bikes just as bad as cars? You see no difference in a bike hitting someone and a 3ton vehicle? Wow. Did you look at data, how many people get injured or killed by cars - and then compare it to data on Bikes?
And of course, who did not hear about terrorist attacks with bikes driving into crowds?
Where did I write they were directly equivalent or as bad when I didn’t? Such an idiotic response quite honestly. At least address what I actually wrote not what you imagine I did.
This not a tough concept - the legal consequences for road users of varying types should be similar. Assholes on bikes are a thing and they should suffer the through the same legal framework as their vehicle brethren.
Can’t comment on NYC, but a huge chunk of cyclists in my area are genuinely reckless, Ebikes or not. I can understand that bikes are less dangerous than cars, but that doesn’t mean bikes can’t kill or injure anyone.
but that doesn’t mean bikes can’t kill or injure anyone.
Who claimed the opposite?
Good. As someone who is all for biking and public transit infrastructure, the number of idiot cyclists running red lights in my town is entirely unacceptable, and far outnumbers the cars I see running lights. They’re going to get themselves killed, and get some innocent driver thrown in prison for their own stupid mistakes in the process.
Cyclists have an incredibly dangerous, toxic culture when it comes to ignoring traffic laws (in the US at least), and it’s really satisfying seeing them actually face the consequences of their actions for once.
Cyclists have an incredibly dangerous, toxic culture when it comes to ignoring traffic laws,
motorists have an incredibly dangerous, GAS POWERED, MULTI TON WEAPON that is regularly used to harass and threaten cyclists. It would be really satisfying to see them get punished for all the anti-cyclist hate and violence.
Are you agreeing with the person you responded too, and then adding more to it? Or are you saying cars are worse, so bicycles shouldn’t have to follow any laws? I’m just a little confused on where you are going with this, because your post seems strangely aggressive when the person you responded too said very clearly that they are for biking and public transit infrastructure, things which drastically lessen reliance on cars.
Cyclists have an incredibly dangerous, toxic culture when it comes to ignoring traffic laws,
singling out toxic CYCLISTS as if they’re as bad, or worse than the droves of incompetent and downright malicious vehicle drivers.
Our society has an incredibly dangerous, toxic culture where people aren’t punished for their transgressions, even when given the responsibility of a multi-ton motor vehicle.
deleted by creator
As a cyclist I agree. So many want to be whatever is most convenient for them at the moment. Pedestrian, vehicle, whatever, I’m sick of it too.
They put up a light specifically for the bikes. I watch bikes blow through that light far more than I’ve ever seen them stop.
This particular T intersection is pretty dangerous. The traffic from the right doesn’t ever stop unless the bike light trips. The traffic to the left only gets a red for either the bikes or traffic turning. The limit is like 50mph(~80kph) which means people are doing ~10 over that pretty regularly. The amount of bikes that get hit or nearly hit because they incorrectly assume the traffic to the right is gonna stop because the traffic to the left is stopped is insane.
Blame Google for the blurry pic…
Edit to rotate the pic to correlate better to the directions.
But there’s an obvious difference between a car running a red light and a bike running a red light. Namely, that in the second case the only bodily risk is to the miscreant.
That’s an important difference that your argument elides.
Can’t they face the consequences through DMV fines on threat of arrest instead of court appearances that just go the same way?
They could, but if it’s anything like the sheer epidemic of bikes running red lights here, I absolutely think it makes sense to send a message to curb the dangerous behavior.
Then again, if it’s actually just an excuse to harass and possibly detain immigrants as mentioned in another comment, then as usual the cops can go fuck themselves.
Such recklessness poses more danger than cars doing the same thing? Either they should both go to court or both should just have the fine.
To repeat what I said in my original comment, the sheer number of cyclists running red lights poses a serious threat to motorists. It’s inevitable that some of those idiots running the lights are going to get hit, and the motorists are going to have to deal with the consequences of the cyclists’ stupidity.
Since cyclists running red lights is a widespread, deeply-ingrained problem in North America, and one that’s much more frequent than cars running red lights, the harsher punishment is completely justified.
To break it down a simply as possible for you: yes, one car running a red light poses more danger than one cyclist running a red light, but one hundred cyclists running a red light poses an order of magnitude more danger than one car running a red light.
And for that reason, I fully support sending the cyclists to court, and only giving the motorists a ticket.
the motorists are going to have to deal with the consequences of the cyclists’ stupidity
No? The cyclist is at fault.
one car running a red light poses much more danger than one cyclist running a red light, but one hundred cyclists running a red light poses an order of magnitude more danger than one car running a red light.
100 people getting broken bones is better than one person dying. Not to mention how probably motor vehicle accidents are to cause a chain reaction, that cyclists’ much lower inertia means they slow down much faster, and that motorists are more likely to be distracted—by bells and whistles and passengers and whatnot. Plus the ratio was ~36:1 (~29:1 excluding non-motorcycle bicycles, i.e. bikes that aren’t e-bikes or mopeds and can’t go above 15mph), not 100:1, as of 2016. Assuming constant speed and ignoring all the not-to-mentions, the median American vehicle delivers the kinetic energy of about 13 e-bikes. That’s very little less-than-half of the 29 of the ratio.
The problem with your argument here is that you’re ignoring the fact that those 100 squishy cyclists running red lights can all get hit by cars, potentially resulting in way more than broken bones, and possibly sending the innocent drivers to jail for vehicular manslaughter.
For the third time, a large number of cyclists running red lights is demonstrably more dangerous than a small number of motorists running red lights, and the court summons is more than warranted.
Edit: Also, holy shit, if you’re right, and the number of cyclists who run red lights compared to motorists is actually 36:1, then YES send them all to court. Jesus!
those 100 squishy cyclists running red lights can all get hit by cars
Even just 29 all getting run over is a ways less likely than a single car causing a chain reaction and causing the same amount of damage.
possibly sending the innocent drivers to jail for vehicular homicide.
Show me. I doubt that’s more likely than sending an innocent rider to jail.
a large number of cyclists running red lights is demonstrably more dangerous than a small number of motorists running red lights
You completely ignore my 108-word argument to the contrary.
Cyclists are the most obnoxious and entitled participants in traffic. They behave like everything belongs to them, they always fly through crosswalks at supersonic speeds looking at the ground because looking up fucks their aerodynamics like they are in some fucking championship (even though in my country you need to step down as you cross the roads or at least fucking slow down and look left and right if you ignore the law that much). Oh and red lights? They don’t seem to apply to them.
Damn, that sounds a lot more annoying than slamming into a pedestrian with a two ton vehicle and killing them.
Gee, a 2 ton vehicle wouldn’t hit them if they weren’t darting across crosswalks without showing any intention they are about to cross or even without looking, running red lights (not the cross walk one, the main intersection red light!) and just having no fucking regard for anything else in traffic. They behave like entire world has to pay attention to them and they can give zero fucks about anyone else. Yes, large majority of cyclists are like that.
It pisses me off because I drive a car and I also ride a bicycle. Just because you’re the weaker one in traffic doesn’t mean sole responsibility for your safety is on others. That’s why I’m so pissed about it.
I’m sorry to hear that’s how it is in your country. Where I am, cyclists nearly walk through crosswalks for safety and commuters do not have supersonic muscles nor endurance. And IIRC you’ve better aero looking up because the helmets are designed that way.
Yawn. What a low energy troll.
Just because I’m not defending asshole cyclists who think they own the roads doesn’t mean I’m trolling. Especially since I’m also a cyclist.
I agree, but wouldn’t you say it’s a mistake to use asshole cyclists to represent cyclists at large?
If cyclist is an asshole, then it applies to them. They know who they are. So many of them are assholes it’s basically the norm. With rare exceptions.
