Being critical of the communist state which relieved 800 million people from extreme poverty over the suppression of a western-sponsored color revolution while fascism disintegrates the EU and US, from the comfort of the armchairs in their Muslim genocide supporting nations
Now tally up all the people in capitalist countries who were “relieved from extreme poverty” during their industrialisation period. And did so without causing massive famines because they had a wierd hate-boner for sparrows.
All those people who were “relieved from extreme poverty” in such settler nations chose to do so on the backs of indentured servants who are not counted in your statistics, as white men tended to often exclude in consideration when formulating convincing metrics to justify their behavior.
capitalist countries who were “relieved from extreme poverty” during their industrialisation period
Uh… Have you opened a book in your life at any point? Have you ever heard of these things called “British Empire”, “Portuguese Empire”, “Spanish Empire”, “Colonial Africa”, or “British Raj”? How about child labour in Britain during industrial development? Bengal famine, Irish potato famine, genocide of Latin Americas, slave trade… The list of actually enforced hunger and genocide is absolutely endless, and much more harrowing than the consequence of (admittedly disastrous) uninformed ecological policy in the mid-20th century.
Ends the justify means thinking. “why improve the process or experience, when my way already works far better than simply stomping on them to get them to open up?”
“because the taste of shoe doesn’t pair well with many flavors”
“My way has 85% less shoe licking”
“Ok, I can think of at least 3 ways you could remove the shoe entirely and it would almost certainly still work (unless of course people intentionally misuse the tools required for the solution)”
“You just want to go back to stomping on them, don’t you!”
If you lack scientific understanding of the material world, or you are wanting to use cynicism and disregard as proof, just say so.
Yes, industrialisation is what lifts people from poverty, that’s exactly why the West has prevented the almost entirety of Africa, South America and Southeast Asia from industrializing, and the greatest industrial developments in the previous century (other than US-sponsored military bases like South Korea or Japan) have happened in, you guessed it, communist countries, whether we refer to the heavy industrialisation of USSR under state-planned economy or the industrialisation of China through Dengism and the attraction of international capital investment. Why didn’t Peru industrialise too? Why didn’t Philippines? Why didn’t Zambia? You’re talking of industrialisation of the West and imperialism as two isolated phenomena, when they’re very much not.
Also are you going talk about Soviet invasion and genocide in eastern Europe
You mean when the Soviets lost 27 million people in order to save Europe from Nazism? We can talk about that, yes
I mean yeah capitalism and imperialism go hand in hand.
But you’re willfully ignoring when “communist” countries do the same. Do you think the soviet oppression of eastern Europe is fundamentally different than the European oppression of Africa
And no, I’m talking about ww2, I’m talk about Holodomor and the Great Chinese Famine. I’m sure you’ll try and find excuses for them like a capitalist would for the bengal or Irish famines.
Do you think the soviet oppression of eastern Europe is fundamentally different than the European oppression of Africa
If you don’t think they’re fundamentally different it means you’re not what you’re talking about. To this day, university students in Morocco and Algeria study in French, ask a Polish graduate from the 70s what language they used in university.
Look at the material exports not just during the colonial era but today in countries like Burkina Faso, whose 70% of exports are precious metals and 80% of exports go to Switzerland, and compare that to the Soviet Union providing raw goods and fossil fuels at international market prices to countries in the COMECON and importing manufactured, high value-added goods therefore subjecting itself to the short end of the stick of unequal exchange and mercantilism, in an effort to subsidise the industrialisation of said countries.
Look at educational outcomes, life expectancy, working rights in Communist Estonia and compare them to the Belgian Congo genocide or to Spanish invasion of Morocco and the status of moroccan citizens in occupied zones.
The Soviet Union was forced to sacrifice 27 mullion human lives in the war against Nazism, and it successfully rid Eastern Europe of it, saving it from being a German colony subjected to genocide and extermination, slavery, de-industrialization and resource exploitation, and instead industrialised its entire area of influence, eliminated landlords and serfdom, instituted huge unions, and did this all without resorting to the exploitation of people in the Global South. Come on, find a 60 year-old person from the Baltics or from Eastern Europe and ask them about worker rights, healthcare, education, pensions or access to housing during communism. And now go to fucking Libya and ask the same to someone who endured Italian colonisation.
You literally have no idea what you’re comparing.
As for “Holodomor” (a word propagated in this century with the intention of creating a nationalist russophobic propaganda of genocide), it was a disastrous hunger episode that affected wide regions of Russia, Central Asia, Ukraine and Belarus, consequence of the first successful large-scale land collectivisation project in human history. It caused a lot of suffering and deaths due to unforeseen effects of collectivisation policy that didn’t take into account how much resistance the landowners would put to the process, coupled with unfortunate weather conditions and bad crops.
Ultimately though, it enabled the successful and unprecedentedly fast-paced industrialisation of the Soviet union that managed to repel the Nazi offensive 10 years later and saved tens if not hundreds of millions of lives from Nazi genocide under projects like the Generalplan Ost and the Hungerplan, which targeted among many others the hundreds of millions of slavic people considered “Untermenschen” by the Nazis.
Regarding the Chinese famine, it’s simply the disastrous and horrendous consequence of failed ecological policy in an era and place prior to scientific understanding of ecology. Neither of these famines was a deliberate, white supremacist, targeted hunger against a peripheral group of people considered undesirable, such as the Bengal famine perpetrated by the British on India (one of a long series of provoked policies that arguably murdered hundreds of millions in India alone).
Describing the conditions under which something happens isn’t an excuse or a denial, BTW. Both these famines happened and they were horrifying, there are just no arguments to compare them to purposefully inflicted hunger by the British Empire on the Irish or Indians, and ultimately both episodes, while harrowing, stem from projects that fundamentally saved hundreds of millions of lives.
Life expectancy in the Soviet Union was 28 years before the Bolshevik revolution, and by 1940 (before the Nazi attack, just half a decade after the hunger episode we mentioned) it was 35 years. During the Nazi invasion of the USSR it obviously dropped, but by the mid-1950s life expectancy was already above 55 years old: twice higher than before communism. The Bolsheviks saved hundreds of millions of lives through the improvements in healthcare, industrialisation, mechanisation of agriculture and colectivization of land that took place in the first 4 decades of the Soviet project.
The same can be said about China. Life expectancy grew by some 20-25 years under the leadership of Mao, which in a country with a population of around 700 million, resulted in the saving of hundreds of millions of lives. The communist project in China over the past 40 years has lifted 800 million people from extreme poverty, which would be the equivalent of eliminating poverty in the entirety of the continent of South America and then some.
Why didn’t these improvements happen simultaneously in countries at the time comparably developed? Indonesia, Argentina, Northern African countries, Thailand, Myanmar, India, Sri Lanka, all of those countries were left unindustrialised and still today suffer from much worse living conditions than China or post-soviet countries, just compare life expectancy. Why is it, if “the evil of the Soviets was comparable to Western Imperialism”, that people in Poland don’t live like people in India? Why don’t people in China live like people in Myanmar?
Oh yeah I’m sure the Polish people are so glad the soviets “saved them from Nazism” after they struck a deal with hitler and invaded their country together. And I’m sure they were even more greatful when the soviet soldiers rated their way through Poland on their way to Berlin.
I’m sure the Ukrainians appreciate the Russians brutally suppressing their independence, forcing them to die en mass against the Nazis, often times not even being armed and sent to the front lines, then having their natural resources stripped, opressed and subject to genocide.
And it’s frankly beyond telling you refuse to even acknowledge my points about Holodomor, because doing so would mean you either have to acknowledge the atrocities committed by the soviets, or go full nutjob conspiracy theorist on it to deny it happened or try and claim it wasn’t actually the soviets fault.
And as for your points about standards of counties, you only have to look at Germany. Wasters Germany still feels the effects of soviet oppression to this day, it’s falls behind the west of thr country in almost every metric. Lookup the Brehznev doctrine that the soviets used to retroactively justify it’s invasion of Czechoslovakia and their policy of “Russofication” which to anyone with eyes is blatant cultural imperialism. There deportations of multiple ethnic groups to wastelands in the east of Russia in order to cleanse those areas and replace them with ethnic Russians while also getting a defacto slave work force.
Funny how extreme poverty starts racing down as soon as China adopted capitalist market reforms.
color revolution
If the massacre in Tiananmen Square was a “western color revolution”, why is China covering it up still? Cuba doesn’t cover up the Bay of Pigs, they celebrate it as a W. It’s almost like it was a protest against a dictatorship that was brutally suppressed, as dictatorships do.
Muslim genocide supporting nations
Like what’s going on in Xinjiang? Israel and China are hand in hand when it comes to ethnic cleansing.
50 cents just isn’t enough to buy good posts nowadays.
Funny how extreme poverty starts racing down as soon as China adopted capitalist market reforms
Extreme poverty was already racing down in the times of Mao before Dengism, life expectancy in China rose some 25 years under Mao. What part of “attracting foreign investment increases the material wealth of the country when done under communist rule” seems funny to you? Is that some sort of gotcha against communists? Because it’s literally the Marxist strategy of Dengism, outlined clearly and not hiding anything.
why is China covering it up
China isn’t “covering up” the Tiananmen revolts, it’s preventing the fabricated set of lies by western media to harm its country, and it’s doing this successfully. China has historically been less developed than western countries due to late industrialisation and being a victim of colonialism and imperialism, and weaker countries need to apply state power to prevent foreign interference, as the Zapatistas had to learn during their struggle. As China strengthens and the West debilitates, China is capable of opening up and controlling its narrative with more soft power, and the West needs to crack down against journalistic freedom. We see this in the US with the banning of TikTok, and in the EU with the banning of Russian media.
Like what’s going on in Xinjiang?
It’s been five years that you libs have been propagating this misinformation about Xinjiang and there’s still not a fucking shred of evidence. The education centres were closed years ago, the counter-terrorism campaign in Xinjiang was ssuccessful, and Xinjiang is not only developing, it’s doing so at an impressively fast rate, and recently the Uyghur became the majority ethnicity in the region. You can literally go into your phone and look up how many Palestinian children have been slaughtered this past week by Israel with video evidence of pretty much every single case, yet in China, a country where pretty much every single citizen owns a smartphone and VPN use isn’t persecuted (personally been in China and used VPNs to bypass the Great Firewall without issues), there isn’t a single picture or video evidence of abuse of authority against Uyghur.
When in 5-10 years it becomes common knowledge that the Uyghur “genocide” was a western fabrication, remember that communists somehow always knew, and reevaluate whether you’re just a propagandised cog in the machine. Everyone also “knew” about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and believed Nayirah’s testimony in congress.
Tankies unable to fathom that you can be critical of both fascism and the authoritarian state capitalism which is China.
Being critical of the communist state which relieved 800 million people from extreme poverty over the suppression of a western-sponsored color revolution while fascism disintegrates the EU and US, from the comfort of the armchairs in their Muslim genocide supporting nations
Now tally up all the people in capitalist countries who were “relieved from extreme poverty” during their industrialisation period. And did so without causing massive famines because they had a wierd hate-boner for sparrows.
All those people who were “relieved from extreme poverty” in such settler nations chose to do so on the backs of indentured servants who are not counted in your statistics, as white men tended to often exclude in consideration when formulating convincing metrics to justify their behavior.
Cool, ask the Ukrainians about how they were treated under the soviets or ask minorities in China how the great leap forward went.
Uh… Have you opened a book in your life at any point? Have you ever heard of these things called “British Empire”, “Portuguese Empire”, “Spanish Empire”, “Colonial Africa”, or “British Raj”? How about child labour in Britain during industrial development? Bengal famine, Irish potato famine, genocide of Latin Americas, slave trade… The list of actually enforced hunger and genocide is absolutely endless, and much more harrowing than the consequence of (admittedly disastrous) uninformed ecological policy in the mid-20th century.
God you’re so fucking stupid.
The point is industrialisation is what lifts people out of poverty. You pointing out imperialism is bad doesn’t change that, does it?
Also are you going talk about Soviet invasion and genocide in eastern Europe or Chinese manufactured famines and child labour?
Don’t argue with tankies. Making fun of them is very much enough.
Ends the justify means thinking. “why improve the process or experience, when my way already works far better than simply stomping on them to get them to open up?”
“because the taste of shoe doesn’t pair well with many flavors”
“My way has 85% less shoe licking”
“Ok, I can think of at least 3 ways you could remove the shoe entirely and it would almost certainly still work (unless of course people intentionally misuse the tools required for the solution)”
“You just want to go back to stomping on them, don’t you!”
If you lack scientific understanding of the material world, or you are wanting to use cynicism and disregard as proof, just say so.
I genuinely can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me or not, because this seems like a good argument against tankies to me.
You’re so close to understanding the concept of hypocrisy. Keep going. You’ll get there.
Yes, industrialisation is what lifts people from poverty, that’s exactly why the West has prevented the almost entirety of Africa, South America and Southeast Asia from industrializing, and the greatest industrial developments in the previous century (other than US-sponsored military bases like South Korea or Japan) have happened in, you guessed it, communist countries, whether we refer to the heavy industrialisation of USSR under state-planned economy or the industrialisation of China through Dengism and the attraction of international capital investment. Why didn’t Peru industrialise too? Why didn’t Philippines? Why didn’t Zambia? You’re talking of industrialisation of the West and imperialism as two isolated phenomena, when they’re very much not.
You mean when the Soviets lost 27 million people in order to save Europe from Nazism? We can talk about that, yes
I mean yeah capitalism and imperialism go hand in hand.
But you’re willfully ignoring when “communist” countries do the same. Do you think the soviet oppression of eastern Europe is fundamentally different than the European oppression of Africa
And no, I’m talking about ww2, I’m talk about Holodomor and the Great Chinese Famine. I’m sure you’ll try and find excuses for them like a capitalist would for the bengal or Irish famines.
If you don’t think they’re fundamentally different it means you’re not what you’re talking about. To this day, university students in Morocco and Algeria study in French, ask a Polish graduate from the 70s what language they used in university.
Look at the material exports not just during the colonial era but today in countries like Burkina Faso, whose 70% of exports are precious metals and 80% of exports go to Switzerland, and compare that to the Soviet Union providing raw goods and fossil fuels at international market prices to countries in the COMECON and importing manufactured, high value-added goods therefore subjecting itself to the short end of the stick of unequal exchange and mercantilism, in an effort to subsidise the industrialisation of said countries.
Look at educational outcomes, life expectancy, working rights in Communist Estonia and compare them to the Belgian Congo genocide or to Spanish invasion of Morocco and the status of moroccan citizens in occupied zones.
The Soviet Union was forced to sacrifice 27 mullion human lives in the war against Nazism, and it successfully rid Eastern Europe of it, saving it from being a German colony subjected to genocide and extermination, slavery, de-industrialization and resource exploitation, and instead industrialised its entire area of influence, eliminated landlords and serfdom, instituted huge unions, and did this all without resorting to the exploitation of people in the Global South. Come on, find a 60 year-old person from the Baltics or from Eastern Europe and ask them about worker rights, healthcare, education, pensions or access to housing during communism. And now go to fucking Libya and ask the same to someone who endured Italian colonisation.
You literally have no idea what you’re comparing.
As for “Holodomor” (a word propagated in this century with the intention of creating a nationalist russophobic propaganda of genocide), it was a disastrous hunger episode that affected wide regions of Russia, Central Asia, Ukraine and Belarus, consequence of the first successful large-scale land collectivisation project in human history. It caused a lot of suffering and deaths due to unforeseen effects of collectivisation policy that didn’t take into account how much resistance the landowners would put to the process, coupled with unfortunate weather conditions and bad crops.
Ultimately though, it enabled the successful and unprecedentedly fast-paced industrialisation of the Soviet union that managed to repel the Nazi offensive 10 years later and saved tens if not hundreds of millions of lives from Nazi genocide under projects like the Generalplan Ost and the Hungerplan, which targeted among many others the hundreds of millions of slavic people considered “Untermenschen” by the Nazis.
Regarding the Chinese famine, it’s simply the disastrous and horrendous consequence of failed ecological policy in an era and place prior to scientific understanding of ecology. Neither of these famines was a deliberate, white supremacist, targeted hunger against a peripheral group of people considered undesirable, such as the Bengal famine perpetrated by the British on India (one of a long series of provoked policies that arguably murdered hundreds of millions in India alone).
Describing the conditions under which something happens isn’t an excuse or a denial, BTW. Both these famines happened and they were horrifying, there are just no arguments to compare them to purposefully inflicted hunger by the British Empire on the Irish or Indians, and ultimately both episodes, while harrowing, stem from projects that fundamentally saved hundreds of millions of lives.
Life expectancy in the Soviet Union was 28 years before the Bolshevik revolution, and by 1940 (before the Nazi attack, just half a decade after the hunger episode we mentioned) it was 35 years. During the Nazi invasion of the USSR it obviously dropped, but by the mid-1950s life expectancy was already above 55 years old: twice higher than before communism. The Bolsheviks saved hundreds of millions of lives through the improvements in healthcare, industrialisation, mechanisation of agriculture and colectivization of land that took place in the first 4 decades of the Soviet project.
The same can be said about China. Life expectancy grew by some 20-25 years under the leadership of Mao, which in a country with a population of around 700 million, resulted in the saving of hundreds of millions of lives. The communist project in China over the past 40 years has lifted 800 million people from extreme poverty, which would be the equivalent of eliminating poverty in the entirety of the continent of South America and then some.
Why didn’t these improvements happen simultaneously in countries at the time comparably developed? Indonesia, Argentina, Northern African countries, Thailand, Myanmar, India, Sri Lanka, all of those countries were left unindustrialised and still today suffer from much worse living conditions than China or post-soviet countries, just compare life expectancy. Why is it, if “the evil of the Soviets was comparable to Western Imperialism”, that people in Poland don’t live like people in India? Why don’t people in China live like people in Myanmar?
Oh yeah I’m sure the Polish people are so glad the soviets “saved them from Nazism” after they struck a deal with hitler and invaded their country together. And I’m sure they were even more greatful when the soviet soldiers rated their way through Poland on their way to Berlin.
I’m sure the Ukrainians appreciate the Russians brutally suppressing their independence, forcing them to die en mass against the Nazis, often times not even being armed and sent to the front lines, then having their natural resources stripped, opressed and subject to genocide.
And it’s frankly beyond telling you refuse to even acknowledge my points about Holodomor, because doing so would mean you either have to acknowledge the atrocities committed by the soviets, or go full nutjob conspiracy theorist on it to deny it happened or try and claim it wasn’t actually the soviets fault.
And as for your points about standards of counties, you only have to look at Germany. Wasters Germany still feels the effects of soviet oppression to this day, it’s falls behind the west of thr country in almost every metric. Lookup the Brehznev doctrine that the soviets used to retroactively justify it’s invasion of Czechoslovakia and their policy of “Russofication” which to anyone with eyes is blatant cultural imperialism. There deportations of multiple ethnic groups to wastelands in the east of Russia in order to cleanse those areas and replace them with ethnic Russians while also getting a defacto slave work force.
I fucking hate tankies so much.
Funny how extreme poverty starts racing down as soon as China adopted capitalist market reforms.
If the massacre in Tiananmen Square was a “western color revolution”, why is China covering it up still? Cuba doesn’t cover up the Bay of Pigs, they celebrate it as a W. It’s almost like it was a protest against a dictatorship that was brutally suppressed, as dictatorships do.
Like what’s going on in Xinjiang? Israel and China are hand in hand when it comes to ethnic cleansing.
50 cents just isn’t enough to buy good posts nowadays.
I wonder if there was any opposition to those reforms, like, maybe some kind of big protest right as they were being introduced 🤔
Extreme poverty was already racing down in the times of Mao before Dengism, life expectancy in China rose some 25 years under Mao. What part of “attracting foreign investment increases the material wealth of the country when done under communist rule” seems funny to you? Is that some sort of gotcha against communists? Because it’s literally the Marxist strategy of Dengism, outlined clearly and not hiding anything.
China isn’t “covering up” the Tiananmen revolts, it’s preventing the fabricated set of lies by western media to harm its country, and it’s doing this successfully. China has historically been less developed than western countries due to late industrialisation and being a victim of colonialism and imperialism, and weaker countries need to apply state power to prevent foreign interference, as the Zapatistas had to learn during their struggle. As China strengthens and the West debilitates, China is capable of opening up and controlling its narrative with more soft power, and the West needs to crack down against journalistic freedom. We see this in the US with the banning of TikTok, and in the EU with the banning of Russian media.
It’s been five years that you libs have been propagating this misinformation about Xinjiang and there’s still not a fucking shred of evidence. The education centres were closed years ago, the counter-terrorism campaign in Xinjiang was ssuccessful, and Xinjiang is not only developing, it’s doing so at an impressively fast rate, and recently the Uyghur became the majority ethnicity in the region. You can literally go into your phone and look up how many Palestinian children have been slaughtered this past week by Israel with video evidence of pretty much every single case, yet in China, a country where pretty much every single citizen owns a smartphone and VPN use isn’t persecuted (personally been in China and used VPNs to bypass the Great Firewall without issues), there isn’t a single picture or video evidence of abuse of authority against Uyghur.
When in 5-10 years it becomes common knowledge that the Uyghur “genocide” was a western fabrication, remember that communists somehow always knew, and reevaluate whether you’re just a propagandised cog in the machine. Everyone also “knew” about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and believed Nayirah’s testimony in congress.