They spent so long equating criticism of Israel with being pro-Hamas that they accidentally made the kids pro-Hamas.
Wtf is wrong with the other 40%?
I think there’s a lot of people who don’t like Israel or Hamas. It’s complicated by the fact Hamas is more like a political party than a nation. If it was Israel vs Palestine I think more people would support Palestine.
Clearly the decades of Israeli/US propaganda against Hamas has been falling down. Truthfully, I’m pretty happy with the 60%, and expect more people will continue to open their eyes.
Let’s send them some weapons while we are at it.
Well, yeah.
back Hamas over Israel
Even here, the setup is false. Anyone remotely affiliated with Hamas is little more than a blood smear on the pavement in Gaza at this point. Israelis are torturing general surgeons to death and calling them Hamas. They’re butchering babies and calling them Hamas. They’re gunning down European photojournalists and calling them Hamas.
There is no “Hamas” left to support. It’s just the stamp Israel puts on the body bag.
I think Hamas is bigger than ever, Israel has given the doubters 18,000 reasons to join Hamas
Anyone remotely affiliated with Hamas is little more than a blood smear on the pavement in Gaza at this point
Imagine if this isn’t true. It’d mean Israel managed to bomb literally everything except Hamas.
I think they just bombed everything hoping it would do a little collateral to Hamas
The sheer barbarity of Israel is incredible. What is even more incredible is how this is actively fucking over western democracy. Israel is willing to throw down every single freedom in the West (from electoral freedom, to freedom speech, to privacy rights… everything) just so they have a few more settlements built on the graves of people they want dead.
The entire war on terror is Israel’s fault. I am going to say it. Modern Islamic fundamentalism is a product of the Cold War, but almost every form of modern international terrorism has its roots in Israeli action and the blowback to that.
Israel is willing to throw down every single freedom in the West (from electoral freedom, to freedom speech, to privacy rights… everything) just so they have a few more settlements
It’s much more than settlements. It’s a Holy War in the very medieval sense. Israelis genuinely really desperately want to rebuild the Third Temple. So much of this Holocaust is rooted in a primevil desire to complete a ritual slaughter of a bull in a magic building that was destroyed thousands of years ago.
That is also what is freaky.
I remember the halcyon days of 2001 and early 2002 right at the time 9/11 happened. The internet was aflame with all manner of anti-muslim stuff (with many sites and earliest citations of personalities going back to March 2001 for some reason) that labeled the entirety of the Muslim world as so irredeemably ignorant and stuck back in the Middle Ages and trying to bring about an apocalypse or simply acting out of centuries or millennia old hatred and prophecy…
All the while every fucking they were saying was a goddamn projection of their own shit. Zionists at the time claimed they were secular and rooted in the modern world of liberalism and computers while in reality they were far more fundamentalist into their own religion and religious prophecies than any Muslim group.
Also they loved to claim that the entirety of the Muslim world was a carbon copy of rural Taliban controlled Afghanistan when nothing could have been farther than the truth.
Muslim fundamentalism (however you define it) is a major problem. But if I had to put the order of danger that religious fundamentalism faces to the world, it would be on lower orders, compared to American Evangelicalism and Zionist Judaism. As a general rule, the fairly harsh religious views of Saudi Arabia, the gulf states, and Iran are mostly contained there with their governments not really interested in propagating it elsewhere.
Meanwhile you have Americans who literally think they are going to bring out the apocalypse, and people like Eric Prince who want to make an old school style ‘free army’ like in Medieval Italy and France (that resulted in untold death and misery) and to have modern crusader states where Muslims convert or die.
Fuck them hard.
Just ask yourself, which religious nutjobs have nukes? And you have your answer. And no it is not Iran.
Muslim fundamentalism (however you define it) is a major problem.
The fixation on Muslim fundamentalism as a problem only came about after the Soviet Union collapsed. Prior to the Soviet fall, Muslim fundamentalists were a dogged ally of Western Capital - particularly in countries like Saudi Arabia, Turkyie, and Pakistan. Hell, the current hand-wringing over Chinese Xinjiang is rooted in the “Why are all the villainous Communist Atheists persecuting these sweet, harmless, beautiful traditionalist Muslims?!” line of propaganda.
What all of it misses is fundamentalism as a reaction to the post-industrial economic tide. Afghani fundamentalists grew out of opposition to the British/US Era opium trade and the Northern Alliance warlord pedophiles, both of which were closely aligned to the American CIA during Operation Cyclone. Egyptian and Iranian fundamentalism emerged from the collapse of liberal democracy in the 1950s, after secular nationalism was undermined by the Great Powers. The mosque became an unassailable bulwark against foreign imperialists of both the Soviet and American stripes, while liberal social and economic institutions were either co-opted or demolished by foreign businesses and saboteurs.
As a general rule, the fairly harsh religious views of Saudi Arabia, the gulf states, and Iran are mostly contained there with their governments not really interested in propagating it elsewhere.
Saudi Wahhabism is very evangelical in practice. You’ll find it all across North and West Africa, most notably in Egypt, Syria, and Ethiopia. But much like the Catholic evangelism common to East Asia (the Philippines, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan most notably), the faith is concentrated in the wealthy professional and bureaucratic classes. It becomes a prerequisite for joining the elite club of economic insiders.
Iranian Shia Islam is much more populist and economically left-leaning, which makes it heterodox to western economic planners. This isn’t to say Shia Islamists aren’t also evangelical. When the US toppled Saddam’s Sunni-aligned Ba’athist party, the Shia evangelicals poured in and aligned the new nation with Iran fairly rapidly (much to the chagrin of Rumfield and Cheney).
But the difference is ultimately rooted in the country’s appetite for exporting energy at below-market-rate to Western business consumers. The actual religious practices are incidental to whether we support or oppose the religion itself.
people like Eric Prince who want to make an old school style ‘free army’ like in Medieval Italy and France
American Freebooters are a tradition rooted in America’s own history. These “free armies” are how we conquered Texas and California from Spain/Mexico. And how we spread our influence over Hawaii, Latin America, and much of the Pacific Rim states.
If anything survives the next big economic decline in the US, it’ll be the freebooters.
BS,
IslamicReligious fundamentalism is not the fault of Jewish Zionism, it is the means for bolstering Authoritarianism over Democracy, Dogma over Human Rights, Corruption over Workers Rights.Jewish Zionism IS religious fundamentalism
Exactly
Religious fascism has been on the rise. All over, yes. But the terrorism of having western countries be bombed due to involvement in Palestine and other places was not inevitable. That has a more direct cause.
I should mention that the first bits of this weren’t Islamic at all. The assassination of RFK in 1968 was done by a Christian Palestinian. The Munich Massacre also had secular participants. There was even a Japanese Marxist group involved at one point, and none of whom were Muslim.
The writing, for Religious Fascism, has been on the wall for a while, from south asia to west africa
I am American jew. I recently replied to an email from my old synagogue about volunteering in Israel, explaining I have no desire to aid Israel with their Nazi Stockholm manic episode, but to have fun working on the new Holocaust.
What the hell kind of apples and oranges headline is that. Israel is a country. Hamas is a political party, not the same as Palestine or Palestinians.
I’d go with terrorist state personally.
It is sad that nuance is lost in this conflict. If you condemn Israeli action on Palestinians, you are accused as anti-Semite. If you condemn the October 7 attack, you are accused of being Zionist and supporting the genocide on Palestinians.
There isn’t ironic bothside-ism on this. Literally both sides are actually at fault. Majority of Israelis back driving the Palestinians out of West Bank and Gaza, and majority of Palestinians want Israel as a country to be destroyed. If anyone have watched or read Attack on Titan TV series or manga, this is a major theme in the story of intergenerational conflict. Two state solution is the only way for the conflict to end, and it isn’t like there was no precedence to lay down arms and live in coexistence (see how the conflict in Northern Ireland ended when both opposing sides agreed that enough is enough). But there is too much bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians to call quits any time soon.
If you condemn the October 7 attack, you are accused of being Zionist and supporting the genocide on Palestinians.
I haven’t seen this. Most honest anti-Zionists I’ve seen online have been very clear in their denunciation of Oct 7.
It’s more like, “if you don’t constantly bring up the horrible attack from several years ago and make sure everyone knows you condemn it, then that means you’re anti-Semitic.”
I’ve seen online have been very clear in their denunciation of Oct 7.
It maybe depends on which social media you are in. I do see tankies in Lemmy shy away from condemning October 7 attack.
I have absolutely encountered this online and offline, a lot of people understand the attack as being justified by the oppressive conditions the Gaza strip was kept in. Personally I think it’s possible for two opposing things to both be bad/wrong.
I look forward to being called an Anti Semite, being a Jew who’s been to Israel twice, and watched my sister get Bat Mitzvah’d on a synagogue roof near the Wailing Wall, and was active in my temple youth group until I graduated High School.
That’s because Israel is treating it as such. They are treating Palestine and Hamas equally by killing both. If the question was rephrased as do you support Hamas or Palestine the vast majority would side with Palestine. Most people don’t know the difference between the 2.
In the lesser of two evils they choose Hamas, which I find insane. I can certainly understand being very against and hating Isreal, but to me Hamas are literal demon scum cockroaches. I have a higher opinion of the Russian military than I do Hamas. And support of Ukraine is something I feel incredibly strongly about.
I think this is a minority opinion here though.
You’re a brainwashed idiot who encouraged people to vote for genociders
https://lemmy.world/post/21907472/13403927
Congrats you have blood on your hands
Hamas is a product of Israeli occupation. The IDF is a product of Israeli national identity.
If it wouldn’t be Hamas, it would be a different violent organization, like before PFLP, PLO, etc. When people are brutally oppressed, it leads to violent resistance, that often will not limit itself to military targets.
The baby killers who brag about it are not literal demon scum cockroaches, the resistance group is?
Although this question is framed in the shittiest way possible, I would still support Hamas over the IDF because only one of these organizations are guilty of genocide.
Easiest call I’ve ever made.
Israel managed to figure out to turn a vicious terrorist group into the good guys.
That’s the main pitfall of this topic. There doesn’t have to be a “good guy” in every conflict. Killing over 1000 Israelis on October 7th, mostly civilians, was unjustified as is keeping the remaining hostages (it’s clearly not restraining the IDF). Likewise blocking aid, destroying hospitals, and targeting journalists is completely unjustified. If you ask me who’s trying their best to do what’s right for their people I would say Hamas.
Yeah but it’s not “likewise,” is it?
It’s 1000 civilian deaths (many shot dead by the IDF due to the Hannibal Detective) vs. a literal genocide and complete destruction of Gaza.
The problem is that people like yourself equate these two things. What Israel has done since Oct 7 (which was not unprovoked, by the way) has been worse by several orders of magnitude.
I think the real problem is that they’re both trying to do what’s best for their people, and they’re both crap at being the best for their people.
Hamas and the IDF both want the other side dead dead. No matter who wins, that’s a lot of dead folks. The path to a peaceful resolution has probably become some convoluted and overgrown I’m not sure possible to hack our way through. But truthfully, that takes both orgs being willing to take that path and I’m not sure that’s on the table anymore.
Israel is winning and we’ve all got blood on our hands, btw. But if we backed Hamas and they were winning we’d have the same blood on our hands.
Oh, for sure. We’re talking what’s the bigger of two massively negative numbers.
Or we back neither, strongly condemn genocide, proclaim our commitment to Peace, and act as the neutral party to negotiate a peace treaty.
Turns out when people break out of a literal concentration camp to fight back against their oppressor they’re
freedom fightersterrorists
That’s disturbing, both sides are POS’s.
Aren’t we constantly told we need to choose between the lesser of two evils?
Thanks for the enlightenment.
Top bad they don’t live in a democracy lmao
Polls are a great way to get the answers you want. I don’t know what the pollsters wanted, but to me the question in question is skewed, because one is a state while the other is an organisation.
“In the Israel-Hamas conflict, do you support more Israel or more Hamas?”
So my answer would’ve been “I support Palestinians in their struggle to have their own country again over Israel which is clearly on an aggressively expansionist rampage.”
Since that isn’t an option I can refuse to answer the stupid poll, or say I support Hamas.
Shouldn’t we explain the nature & history of the struggle instead?
edit: obvious pro/contra Hamas discussion ensues. But IMO it’s moot - at least for the foreseeable future - because Israel is so obviously the much bigger monster here, and has been for a long while, and because denying a nation the right to exist simply is not acceptable.
While you’re not wrong, I think framing it as “israel-hamas” rather than “israel-palestine” is the least favourable framing available (for a supporter of Palestine) without resorting to really obvious leading questions.
As such, seeing a majority opinion against Israel is encouraging. I’d expect a more nuanced survey to swing more heavily against Israel
It’s not that 60% support Hamas, it’s that 60% oppose Israel
framing it as “israel-hamas” rather than “israel-palestine” is the least favourable framing available
Isn’t that exactly what I said? Maybe my phrasing is off.
MartinSands point is that even though GenZ probably don’t support Hamas murdering civilians, they still consider their struggle as more virtuous than Israel when given no other option; meaning support for Palestine is likely much higher than the poll suggests.
I thought you were implying that the survey was so unreliable that we couldn’t reach any conclusions about support for Israel, or the lack thereof. I was trying to point out that we could (tenuously) reach at least one conclusion.
You said it right.
Hamas are just a group of men whos families were blown up by the IDF. not saying their actions after are not evil but I understand their mindset. If the world has condemned you and your people to death simply for existing, what other options do they have?
I get that 100%. I have said it about MAGAs in America. I have people very close to me who are members of vulnerable groups that MAGA is targeting. If ANYTHING was to happen to them, I would become very dangerous indeed. That’s a bright red line for me.
This. Only time I’ve ever been violent is when someone harms a person I love. I’m letting MAGA know now. Fuck around and I promise I’ll be your find out.
They´re also just a group of men who´ve blown up other families to stop the Oslo Accords
Stop shifting the blame. Netanyahu admitted sabotaging the Oslo accords . The PLO accepted the term of Oslo they stop attacking Israel and acknowledged Israel as a state . How Israel thanked them? They did by expending illegal settlements, arming settlers and defend them when they commit terrorism against west bankers. The PA collaborate with israel while trash talking them . Once israel decide to completely annex west bank the PA leaders will all get murdered by israel
Yeah, after Hamas helped Netanyahu into the PM seat with their bombing campaign to stop the peace process, he was able to sabotage it all he wanted, mainly by fully backing the settlement movement. But my point is: what if Hamas wouldn’t have done so?
DARVO shit…
Israelis voted for Netanyahu because they are ok with the occupation. You love to make it just about Netanyahu but all the other Israeli prime minister are war criminals
what if Hamas wouldn’t have done so?
Israel would still have continued occupation and building illegal settlements because it is still ruled by the supremacist Zionist ideology
Netanyahu was down more than 20% after the peace accords had been signed. Hamas’ string of bomb attacks in the runup to the election helped him to narrowly win the vote by 0.5%
Yeah, Netanyahu is the only zionist in the Israeli government, and had he not won that specific election, then the Palestinians would be free. 🙄
I repeat all israeli prime minister was war criminal who brutalized Palestinians . Even most Israeli population do not give a damn about Palestinians so no hamas is not the reason why israel is still occupying Palestine and are committing a genocide
Uhhhhhh what? Not saying what this men did wasn’t evil, but there’s very few men on this earth that wouldn’t retaliate when his people are being slaughtered. Did you know the Nazie’s labeled partisan Fighters in their occupied territories terrorists too!?
That’s the same justification Bibi uses for his side’s killings
Ya but he has the actual power. That’s the difference.
And
…and do you think that made the world a better place?
Exactly. I don’t care if Hamas is wiped out, they’re objectively awful, it’s the Palestinians getting killed in the crossfire that’s the issue.
Of course, they aren’t really getting caught in the crossfire, they are the targets. Israel is just using Hamas as an excuse to throw bombs around residential areas, hospitals, and schools.
Its not just gen z.
60 percent is also the portion of Gen-Z that chose not to vote in the last US election. If you don’t vote, you don’t count!
@Saleh This is a drawing of the Great Mufti of Jerusalem #AminalHusseini wearing a #Kufiya meeting Hitler on November, 28 1942 in Berlin.
The survey did not ask participants whether they support Palestinians more broadly, despite Israeli leaders repeatedly framing their war as being against all Palestinians, not only Hamas.
@Saleh Reads like nonsense, sorry.
You know how reading works, no?
@crandlecan The part ‘Israeli leaders repeatedly framing their war as being against all Palestinians, not only Hamas.’ is reducing the context/is wrong.
