not a war
Not that I trust polls and people’s intentions when they do polls but the comparison does actually make sense since Israeli state is by far the greatest terrorist organization of the last couple decades.
They spent so long equating criticism of Israel with being pro-Hamas that they accidentally made the kids pro-Hamas.
Or pro-hamas was the only other option in the survey.
TL;DR the question they asked 2000 kids was “In the Israel-Hamas conflict, do you support more Israel or more Hamas?”
When people think higher of a volte terrorist organization than a legitimate government, it might be time to put some politicians of said government against a wall. Maybe all of em.
The same poll also found RFK Jr had the highest positive approval rating — in fact the only major national leader with net positive rating. So I have serious doubts about the accuracy of the polling.
Wtf is wrong with the other 40%?
I think there’s a lot of people who don’t like Israel or Hamas. It’s complicated by the fact Hamas is more like a political party than a nation. If it was Israel vs Palestine I think more people would support Palestine.
Those guys would have supported slave owners when Nat turner murdered somw kids during his revolt
Clearly the decades of Israeli/US propaganda against Hamas has been falling down. Truthfully, I’m pretty happy with the 60%, and expect more people will continue to open their eyes.
For what it’s worth, I wholeheartedly support Hamas as a resistance movement against Zionist occupation of Palestine.
I welcome any bombing on Tel Aviv. I truly hope there will be more and Palestine can be liberated by this sickness.
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Let’s send them some weapons while we are at it.
back Hamas over Israel
Even here, the setup is false. Anyone remotely affiliated with Hamas is little more than a blood smear on the pavement in Gaza at this point. Israelis are torturing general surgeons to death and calling them Hamas. They’re butchering babies and calling them Hamas. They’re gunning down European photojournalists and calling them Hamas.
There is no “Hamas” left to support. It’s just the stamp Israel puts on the body bag.
I think Hamas is bigger than ever, Israel has given the doubters 18,000 reasons to join Hamas
Anyone remotely affiliated with Hamas is little more than a blood smear on the pavement in Gaza at this point
Imagine if this isn’t true. It’d mean Israel managed to bomb literally everything except Hamas.
I wonder ho many of their own hostages israel killed.
I think they just bombed everything hoping it would do a little collateral to Hamas
The sheer barbarity of Israel is incredible. What is even more incredible is how this is actively fucking over western democracy. Israel is willing to throw down every single freedom in the West (from electoral freedom, to freedom speech, to privacy rights… everything) just so they have a few more settlements built on the graves of people they want dead.
The entire war on terror is Israel’s fault. I am going to say it. Modern Islamic fundamentalism is a product of the Cold War, but almost every form of modern international terrorism has its roots in Israeli action and the blowback to that.
Israel is willing to throw down every single freedom in the West (from electoral freedom, to freedom speech, to privacy rights… everything) just so they have a few more settlements
It’s much more than settlements. It’s a Holy War in the very medieval sense. Israelis genuinely really desperately want to rebuild the Third Temple. So much of this Holocaust is rooted in a primevil desire to complete a ritual slaughter of a bull in a magic building that was destroyed thousands of years ago.
That is also what is freaky.
I remember the halcyon days of 2001 and early 2002 right at the time 9/11 happened. The internet was aflame with all manner of anti-muslim stuff (with many sites and earliest citations of personalities going back to March 2001 for some reason) that labeled the entirety of the Muslim world as so irredeemably ignorant and stuck back in the Middle Ages and trying to bring about an apocalypse or simply acting out of centuries or millennia old hatred and prophecy…
All the while every fucking they were saying was a goddamn projection of their own shit. Zionists at the time claimed they were secular and rooted in the modern world of liberalism and computers while in reality they were far more fundamentalist into their own religion and religious prophecies than any Muslim group.
Also they loved to claim that the entirety of the Muslim world was a carbon copy of rural Taliban controlled Afghanistan when nothing could have been farther than the truth.
Muslim fundamentalism (however you define it) is a major problem. But if I had to put the order of danger that religious fundamentalism faces to the world, it would be on lower orders, compared to American Evangelicalism and Zionist Judaism. As a general rule, the fairly harsh religious views of Saudi Arabia, the gulf states, and Iran are mostly contained there with their governments not really interested in propagating it elsewhere.
Meanwhile you have Americans who literally think they are going to bring out the apocalypse, and people like Eric Prince who want to make an old school style ‘free army’ like in Medieval Italy and France (that resulted in untold death and misery) and to have modern crusader states where Muslims convert or die.
Fuck them hard.
Just ask yourself, which religious nutjobs have nukes? And you have your answer. And no it is not Iran.
Just ask yourself, which religious nutjobs have nukes?
The United States of America. But yes, Israel as well
Muslim fundamentalism (however you define it) is a major problem.
The fixation on Muslim fundamentalism as a problem only came about after the Soviet Union collapsed. Prior to the Soviet fall, Muslim fundamentalists were a dogged ally of Western Capital - particularly in countries like Saudi Arabia, Turkyie, and Pakistan. Hell, the current hand-wringing over Chinese Xinjiang is rooted in the “Why are all the villainous Communist Atheists persecuting these sweet, harmless, beautiful traditionalist Muslims?!” line of propaganda.
What all of it misses is fundamentalism as a reaction to the post-industrial economic tide. Afghani fundamentalists grew out of opposition to the British/US Era opium trade and the Northern Alliance warlord pedophiles, both of which were closely aligned to the American CIA during Operation Cyclone. Egyptian and Iranian fundamentalism emerged from the collapse of liberal democracy in the 1950s, after secular nationalism was undermined by the Great Powers. The mosque became an unassailable bulwark against foreign imperialists of both the Soviet and American stripes, while liberal social and economic institutions were either co-opted or demolished by foreign businesses and saboteurs.
As a general rule, the fairly harsh religious views of Saudi Arabia, the gulf states, and Iran are mostly contained there with their governments not really interested in propagating it elsewhere.
Saudi Wahhabism is very evangelical in practice. You’ll find it all across North and West Africa, most notably in Egypt, Syria, and Ethiopia. But much like the Catholic evangelism common to East Asia (the Philippines, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan most notably), the faith is concentrated in the wealthy professional and bureaucratic classes. It becomes a prerequisite for joining the elite club of economic insiders.
Iranian Shia Islam is much more populist and economically left-leaning, which makes it heterodox to western economic planners. This isn’t to say Shia Islamists aren’t also evangelical. When the US toppled Saddam’s Sunni-aligned Ba’athist party, the Shia evangelicals poured in and aligned the new nation with Iran fairly rapidly (much to the chagrin of Rumfield and Cheney).
But the difference is ultimately rooted in the country’s appetite for exporting energy at below-market-rate to Western business consumers. The actual religious practices are incidental to whether we support or oppose the religion itself.
people like Eric Prince who want to make an old school style ‘free army’ like in Medieval Italy and France
American Freebooters are a tradition rooted in America’s own history. These “free armies” are how we conquered Texas and California from Spain/Mexico. And how we spread our influence over Hawaii, Latin America, and much of the Pacific Rim states.
If anything survives the next big economic decline in the US, it’ll be the freebooters.
BS,
IslamicReligious fundamentalism is not the fault of Jewish Zionism, it is the means for bolstering Authoritarianism over Democracy, Dogma over Human Rights, Corruption over Workers Rights.Jewish Zionism IS religious fundamentalism
Exactly
Religious fascism has been on the rise. All over, yes. But the terrorism of having western countries be bombed due to involvement in Palestine and other places was not inevitable. That has a more direct cause.
I should mention that the first bits of this weren’t Islamic at all. The assassination of RFK in 1968 was done by a Christian Palestinian. The Munich Massacre also had secular participants. There was even a Japanese Marxist group involved at one point, and none of whom were Muslim.
The writing, for Religious Fascism, has been on the wall for a while, from south asia to west africa
I am American jew. I recently replied to an email from my old synagogue about volunteering in Israel, explaining I have no desire to aid Israel with their Nazi Stockholm manic episode, but to have fun working on the new Holocaust.
Well, yeah.
What the hell kind of apples and oranges headline is that. Israel is a country. Hamas is a political party, not the same as Palestine or Palestinians.
I’d go with terrorist state personally.
It is sad that nuance is lost in this conflict. If you condemn Israeli action on Palestinians, you are accused as anti-Semite. If you condemn the October 7 attack, you are accused of being Zionist and supporting the genocide on Palestinians.
There isn’t ironic bothside-ism on this. Literally both sides are actually at fault. Majority of Israelis back driving the Palestinians out of West Bank and Gaza, and majority of Palestinians want Israel as a country to be destroyed. If anyone have watched or read Attack on Titan TV series or manga, this is a major theme in the story of intergenerational conflict. Two state solution is the only way for the conflict to end, and it isn’t like there was no precedence to lay down arms and live in coexistence (see how the conflict in Northern Ireland ended when both opposing sides agreed that enough is enough). But there is too much bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians to call quits any time soon.
Palestine just want to end occupation. Stop with equating the oppressed with the oppressor
Yes, everyone wants the occupation to end. So do you support the two-state solution and condemn the October 7 that killed foreign hostages who have no stake on the conflict?
Yes, everyone wants the occupation to end
False . Israel never wanted the end of occupation since the beginning. The west don’t want either otherwise they would have sanctioned Israel since 67
So do you support the two-state solution
I support one state solution because i truly believe that it is possible for Israelis and Palestinians to live together in one democratic state.
Can you tell me exactly how is it possible to make a two state solution when Israel separate the west bank and Gaza? Would Israel accept 700k settlers in Israel or will Israel allow the millions Palestinians to be moved to a new Palestinian state that is weak economically?
condemn the October 7 that killed foreign hostages who have no stake on the conflict?
Yes, i condemn Hamas killing innocent civilians and take some hostages during the 7 of October. Now do you condemn 77 years of oppression conducted by Israel against Palestinians including the kidnapping and systematic rapes in israeli jail and during the nekba?
I support one state solution because i truly believe that it is possible for Israelis and Palestinians to live together in one democratic state.
That’s actually even better. But how do you think Palestinians and Israel would be convinced to do that? What people miss is the inconvenient truth that majority of Palestinians and Israelis want the other gone. Israelis voted for Likud, and majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas; both parties are ultranationalist parties. The slogan “from river to the sea” is being wrestled between both parties, meaning they want their opponents gone. As much as I think borders are nonsensical, it serves certain purpose given how territorial and violent humans are.
Would Israel accept 700k settlers in Israel or will Israel allow the millions Palestinians to be moved to a new Palestinian state that is weak economically?
If both sides actually act in good faith? Why not? How else have other countries that share borders with enclaves and exclaves coexisted? People act like there are no precedence; as if we are inventing a new way to move objects from one place to another, as if the wheel hasn’t been invented yet and figuring out how to do so.
Now do you condemn 77 years of oppression conducted by Israel against Palestinians including the kidnapping and systematic rapes in israeli jail and during the nekba?
Yes, that’s why two-state solution is important. That was already mandated by the UN for 77 years but neither parties and their benefactors don’t want to follow.
But how do you think Palestinians and Israel would be convinced to do that? What people miss is the inconvenient truth that majority of Palestinians and Israelis want the other gone. Israelis voted for Likud, and majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas; both parties are ultranationalist parties.
You are using the same excuse used in south Africa. Many used to say that black south Africa would avenge themselves by attacking white people.
If you don’t believe that one day Palestinians and Israelis can forget about their hate toward each other then a one state or two state solution make zero difference because Palestine and Israel are neighbors
Palestinians support dropping arms once occupation end. Even if you don’t believe them Israel can easily reoccupy. Even if Hamas refuse to drop arms a Palestinian state with it’s own army will be charged to stop Hamas. The PA is already doing that. But those scummy western countries and Arab traitors are still supporting Israel and think it can fool us into believing they support a two state
If both sides actually act in good faith? Why not?
A new Palestinian state simply can’t absorb an additional two millions people and would be both side ethnic cleansing. You want instead of a democratic one state two ethenostates?
that’s why two-state solution is important. That was already mandated by the UN for 77 years but neither parties and their benefactors don’t want to follow.
Palestine want peace they just reject deals that doesn’t give them all the right that international law gave them. They should get all the recognized Palestinian land by the international community and a right to an army to defend itself . Israel leadership since it’s creation doesn’t want peace because they are the super military power ruled by a supremacist ideology that believe the whole land belong to them
You still didn’t answer the question how a two state solution would be made when part of Israel is between the west bank and gaza?
You are using the same excuse used in south Africa. Many used to say that black south Africa would avenge themselves by attacking white people.
Not sure what you mean.
In any case, did you even look at the survey from both Palestinian and Israeli side that they want the other gone? How can you expect Palestinians and Israelis to agree to a one-state? Or even a two-state solution?
You are comparing South Africa with Palestine/Israel as if both have completely the same context and scenario. South Africans of all race have a shared culture and history that still made them feel have a sense of kinship. They still call themselves South Africans. What do Israelis and Palestinians call themselves? Fact of the matter is that both Palestinians and Israelis don’t feel close affinity towards each other to form one country. If they do unite one day, there has to be mutual feeling.
You still didn’t answer the question how a two state solution would be made when part of Israel is between the west bank and gaza?
Then you probably haven’t heard of exclaves and enclaves before.
If you condemn the October 7 attack, you are accused of being Zionist and supporting the genocide on Palestinians.
I haven’t seen this. Most honest anti-Zionists I’ve seen online have been very clear in their denunciation of Oct 7.
It’s more like, “if you don’t constantly bring up the horrible attack from several years ago and make sure everyone knows you condemn it, then that means you’re anti-Semitic.”
I’ve seen online have been very clear in their denunciation of Oct 7.
It maybe depends on which social media you are in. I do see tankies in Lemmy shy away from condemning October 7 attack.
I have absolutely encountered this online and offline, a lot of people understand the attack as being justified by the oppressive conditions the Gaza strip was kept in. Personally I think it’s possible for two opposing things to both be bad/wrong.
Yup, in the eyes of those who support the October 7 attack, taking hostage of and killing foreign civilians–who have no dog in the race-- is completely justified. There are freedom fighters throughout history who consciously avoid killing foreigners and civilians, so it’s not like there is no precedence for Hamas not to follow.
I look forward to being called an Anti Semite, being a Jew who’s been to Israel twice, and watched my sister get Bat Mitzvah’d on a synagogue roof near the Wailing Wall, and was active in my temple youth group until I graduated High School.
That’s because Israel is treating it as such. They are treating Palestine and Hamas equally by killing both. If the question was rephrased as do you support Hamas or Palestine the vast majority would side with Palestine. Most people don’t know the difference between the 2.
Although this question is framed in the shittiest way possible, I would still support Hamas over the IDF because only one of these organizations are guilty of genocide.
Easiest call I’ve ever made.
Israel managed to figure out to turn a vicious terrorist group into the good guys.
Hamas terrorism is a direct consequence of 77 years of oppression
Turns out when people break out of a literal concentration camp to fight back against their oppressor they’re
freedom fightersterroristsThat’s the main pitfall of this topic. There doesn’t have to be a “good guy” in every conflict. Killing over 1000 Israelis on October 7th, mostly civilians, was unjustified as is keeping the remaining hostages (it’s clearly not restraining the IDF). Likewise blocking aid, destroying hospitals, and targeting journalists is completely unjustified. If you ask me who’s trying their best to do what’s right for their people I would say Hamas.
Yeah but it’s not “likewise,” is it?
It’s 1000 civilian deaths (many shot dead by the IDF due to the Hannibal Detective) vs. a literal genocide and complete destruction of Gaza.
The problem is that people like yourself equate these two things. What Israel has done since Oct 7 (which was not unprovoked, by the way) has been worse by several orders of magnitude.
I think the real problem is that they’re both trying to do what’s best for their people, and they’re both crap at being the best for their people.
Hamas and the IDF both want the other side dead dead. No matter who wins, that’s a lot of dead folks. The path to a peaceful resolution has probably become some convoluted and overgrown I’m not sure possible to hack our way through. But truthfully, that takes both orgs being willing to take that path and I’m not sure that’s on the table anymore.
Israel is winning and we’ve all got blood on our hands, btw. But if we backed Hamas and they were winning we’d have the same blood on our hands.
Oh, for sure. We’re talking what’s the bigger of two massively negative numbers.
Or we back neither, strongly condemn genocide, proclaim our commitment to Peace, and act as the neutral party to negotiate a peace treaty.
That’s disturbing, both sides are POS’s.
You are the POS
Aren’t we constantly told we need to choose between the lesser of two evils?
Thanks for the enlightenment.
