Sounds like the issue is that the metric people should be using is maximum speed, because that’s the main thing that makes it unsafe, but this is not clear to them
Those parents are awesome, lol! -kids who think they are invincible
A few routes near me have banned e-bikes, which is frustrating because I’m sure the real problem is the 15 year olds on illegal electric motorbikes. Not e-bikes.
My state changed their max power from 750w continuous to 750w peak, which turned my bicycle into a motorcycle.
If I’d known I was going to be breaking the law, I’d have bought something more powerful, damn it.
What’s really stupid about limiting e-bikes by wattage is that it discriminates against cargo bikes. Limiting by capping assisted top speed makes much more sense.
Nuanced I know, but it also bothers me that the term ‘ebike’ is applicable to both pedal assisted and throttle controlled bicycles.
As you point out, a kilowatt would do quite differently for a cargo bike than a commuter bike. More severe still is the difference between acceleration on a pedal assisted cargo and a commuter with the throttle wide open.
It’s startling how fast some of these bikes can achieve car like speeds.
I’m of two minds on the whole throttle thing. I agree that tooling around on a high-power vehicle without bothering to pedal at all makes a mockery of the notion of it being a ‘bicycle.’ However, I appreciate that my Class 2 cargo e-bike has a throttle because I often blip it when setting off from a stop because it can otherwise be hard to get going before the cadence sensor (on my old bike) or torque sensor (on my new one) has a chance to kick in.
On a related note, I really appreciate that my new bike modulates the power output somewhat based on how hard I’m pedaling rather than treating the cadence sensor as a glorified on/off switch. On the old bike, if you were pedaling, you were accelerating all the way up to the speed cut-off unless you were on a steep hill. With the new one, I can pedal with light or moderate effort in assist level 3 and actually go slower than 20 mph, but still faster than the level 2 cutoff of 8 mph.
Frankly, I would almost be inclined to say that a torque sensor should be a harder requirement for a thing to count as an e-bike than the presence or absence of a throttle (as long as said throttle cuts off at a decently-low speed).
I agree, and think that’s probably the solution to speed demons on ebikes. Modulate the power output on some curve to assist more at lower speeds (not doubling the riders efforts or anything like that) and level off at whatever point is deemed ‘fast enough’. If the rider wants to go faster, no problem, but have it be muscle power, not battery power.
Cargo bikes are certainly a different power curve. Sometimes I get so loaded up on mine it takes halfway to the next light before I can get it out of granny gear. I understand your use case for the throttle here, either getting to a cruising speed, or even just enough so you’re balanced and not wobbling. I’m sure this could be resolved with higher sensitivity on a torque sensor or having a great-granny gear, so to speak.
I had the pleasure of riding a fancy front bucket style ebike for a few hours last year and it had no trouble getting going from a full stop. Damn thing cost more than my car though haha.
What you describe with your old ebike reminds me of the Reevo. It was designed so poorly if you were walking it, the pedals could still turn and activate the power assist and produce a feedback loop that saw the bike take off away from you and into the sunset.
Acceleration and top speed both need to be controlled if they are to be bikes. Watts puts too much incentive to cheat.
Bosch seems to did pretty well with their cargobike mid-drive. If you’re a cargobike maker you’d want a mid-drive anyway.
As with everything, parents refuse to do any research and just buy whatever for their children. Next steps will be attempting to ban them.
I know tech nerds scoff about this for video games and, in this case, e-bikes; but I imagine when you’re buying so many categories of item for kids, there’s always something you don’t think about enough - especially if, being a parent, your time is at a premium.
I’m not trying to shoulder blame 100% on manufacturers, just describing why it’s an understandable mistake to me.
Video games have ratings right on the box, ebikes have top speeds written on them. I put the blame on the parents.
Right? How fucking hard is it to just fucking google something like this, in this day and age? It’s not like the 80s and 90s where you had to call around to find information about something your kid wants. You can just look it up online, easily. Epitome of shit parents.
Googling anything in this day and age can be pretty monotonous, with AI results and SEO garbage filling every page.
At a certain point it should be reasonable to expect things that are sold to be safe without the responsibility of investigating every purchase like an archeological dig.
I have to imagine it’s easier than starting a coalition to ban things, but I’ve been wrong about that before
Listen, Google is new technology. It was only invented 30+ years ago…
Even a quick googling on my end got me results for what I’m hoping is a suitable kid’s e-bike. Class 2 (20mph max), 500W, and cargo space for any bulky school projects.
Putting aside that the internet definitely existed in the 80s and 90s. That’s what magazines were for, that’s why there was a zine for everything.
I mean, it wasn’t exactly widely available and the average household didn’t have Internet until the mid to late 90s, and a lot of times it was a shared line, so if Mom was taking to Great Aunt Millie for the first time in months, you weren’t getting online that night lol.
Ban parents? Only sensible take.
You compared video games having content ratings to ebikes having wattage labels in another comment. Video games predate the current rating system. That’s where we are now with ebikes.
There isn’t an ebike equivalent to the ESRB. There are different guidelines everywhere, and manufacturer enforcement basically nowhere.
Putting all the blame on parents is equivalent to saying climate change is the fault of people that don’t put their yoghurt cups in the recycle bin. We shouldn’t engage in the trickle-down blame game.
I didn’t say wattage, I said speed. As a parent you should know that putting your child on anything that has a motor means you need to pay attention. My ebike said right on the box, on the website, and in the store what the speed was. It was no secret how fast it could go. Any parent should be able to know that putting your child on something that goes over 20 mph that it’s dangerous, it’s not rocket science. If they buy a device which moves their child that fast, that is 100% on them. They can take responsibility.
I see what you’re getting at, though personally I want guardrails on the overpass rather than trusting individual drivers to stay within the painted lanes.
I’d be okay with an age rating on there similar to ESRB for parents, but I don’t want restrictions on devices because parents can’t be bothered to research the products they buy for their children. We deserve freedom to buy what we want without having safety padding on everything because other people can’t be bothered to do the basic minimum research.
Age ratings I think would be one of those things that gets enforced only after an incident occurs, and may not result in a significant reduction in the dangerous activity.
Tricky business, determining what should and shouldn’t be reasonable to research. It’s a bit individualistic though to say what is and isn’t ‘basic minimum research’. Your value of what should be researched prior to a purchase is likely different than mine. There’s also a near infinite number of things this research could be done for. Nobody has that kind of time.
Ignoring power and top speed, perhaps a finer detail is whether that top speed can be achieved by pushing a button or if you have to put physical efforts in. Anyone could tell by my silhouette that I am not a ‘fit’ individual, but I can achieve 20mph on each of my bicycles. Someone younger and fitter could surpass me. There’s no reason to though, because so many of these cheap ebikes have throttle control and not pedal assist.
The guidelines for these things are too broad or simply nonexistent. For years the limiting factor was the technology, and so it wasn’t worthwhile to make a legal framework when it was just the village tinkerer that could make a battery power a bicycle up to car-like speeds. We need some limitations. Power, age, speed, function - each have their own difficulties in limiting.
It’ll probably need to be some combination. Hopefully it doesn’t take too long.
I disagree. It’s on the individual to decide what speed they can themselves handle. it’s not a car where you’re going to hurt someone else by plowing into them or into a group of people, on an ebike for the most part you’re only going to hurt yourself. (Yes yes you could hurt someone else by running into them but compared to a car it’s a much different thing). So I disagree, since you are taking on most of the risk yourself then you should be allowed to choose what you are comfortable with. Streets already have speed limits, as long as you’re respecting that then I think it’s enough. Is it safe? I don’t care, that’s on the individual to decide.
If parents are uncomfortable with that then it’s on them to regulate their own children, not force their wishes on everyone else. It’s a freedom issue, and I’m not willing to give up my freedom to choose a bike I want because other people are worried about their kids. The solution is incredibly simple: don’t buy your kids something that they can get hurt on.
I can’t help but notice the parallel between the freedom being described here and the car centric dominance that plagues society. In a micromobility community nonetheless.
You’re not wrong that when someone rides at a ridiculous speed on an ebike, barring direct collision, the rider is the only one being injured if an accident were to occur. However, if everyone were to behave with such disregard, serious accidents would occur all the time. Speed limits don’t do anything - speed bumps do. The former is reactionary and might only matter for the few that get speeding tickets, where the latter is preemptive and has a direct impact on everyone because everyone has to drive over it. Infrastructure is what keeps the train on the rails, not paint or signage.
Parents regulating their children is one thing, but I’m suggesting any group be permitted to force their wishes on the majority. I suggest that there is a middle ground that could be decided on as being a happy medium between safety for the masses and freedoms for the individual. However that doesn’t seem to be resonating here when the responses lean so heavily into personal freedoms outweighing the good of the whole - which is the same thing as a parent forcing their will for extreme safety measures on everyone else only in reverse.
I will bring this to a close by framing it as broadly as is your incredibly simple solution: if an adult is not willing to abide a minor inconvenience for the sake of another person’s wellbeing, that isn’t an adult worth benefiting from the labours of society.
Cheers.
Any parents reading this who’ve found themselves with an unwanted electric motorcycle, I’d be happy to take it off your hands.
Me 2nd
Personally I don’t understand why anyone would need even 750W for an electric bike, let alone multiple kilowatts.
Mine is an EU-regulation 250W and I never even use the top power level. In fact sometimes I forget to turn on the battery and (on the flat) don’t even notice.
This really looks like the same story of macho horsepower inflation that’s been at work with combustion motorbikes for a century. Look at those giant BMWs with 1.4-litre engines that are enough to power a sedan. Completely unnecessary and irrational (and non-existent just a few decades ago) but the biker-dude owners will always find a reason that they “need” it. And let’s face it, this really is a story about dudes.
I live somewhere mountainous.
By road, it’s 4km to the grocery store, which is 150m lower in elevation. My nominally 750w middrive claims 140nm of torque, and shows a ~1300w pull when climbing. This level of power is only sufficient to make climbing feel like I’m riding flat ground unassisted. Cutout is 32kph, but flat ground is so rare I don’t hit it, I’m mostly climbing at <25kph or coasting downhill.
There are people with limited mobility. There are places with lots of hills. There are people who need to carry cargo like kids and groceries on there bikes.
There are people who live in places with lots of hills who have mobility issues and need to be able to carry lots of heavy cargo on their bikes.
Sounds like they need a motorcycle with side car than a bike?
I think this is my biggest issue with ebikes.
People will be riding down the mixed use pedestrian/bike pathway on what looks like a bike, going 45mph next to the road with a 35mph speedlimit without peddaling.
I think there needs to be some regulation that makes it more visually apparent what is an electric bike and what is an electric motorcycle.
riding down the mixed use pedestrian/bike pathway on what looks like a bike, going 45mph
Much as I hate to say it, problems like this have a way of solving themselves. The unfortunate thing is they usually take some innocent bystander down with them.
Call me crazy, but maybe we should try to solve obvious problems before people are injured/maimed/killed.
The weird thing for me is that where I live, lots of these middle school kids ride them on the sidewalks that run along the greenbelt area and absolutely refuse to ride them in the grass even to go around people. If I were riding something like a pseudo dirt bike you couldn’t keep me off the grass.
Legally they’re supposed to ride in the street. Not the grass, or the sidewalk.
UPDATE: To clarify, this post was written with Class 1-3 ebikes in mind. Anything above that is absolutely subject to motorcycle regulations. Registration, insurance, etc.
If you mean the breakdown lane, then yes… assuming it exists on that road. If not, then you really don’t have a choice. Speaking from experience, riding on a 3-6 inch mini road shoulder is a horrible experience. You’re constantly checking for cars behind while simultaneously making sure you don’t bonk the sidewalk curb which will topple you if you hit it.
My path list is breakdown lane > parking lot > sidewalk > dirt. Whatever keeps me clear of both pedestrians and moving cars.
Where I live it’s illegal to ride bikes (or e-scooters) on the sidewalk. You are required to ride in the street and observe traffic laws like stop signs.
Oh dear god please tell me that’s in an area with both respectful drivers and a sufficiently low 15-20 mph speed limit. All of my defensive driving experience is screaming DANGER.
There is an area like that near where I live, and it is the only place where I feel it is safe to even consider mingling with car traffic. For that area, I do exactly as you posted.
They are motorcycles - they need to be ridden in the same lane as cars. You also need a drivers license with a motorcycle endorsement - which I doubt most kids have. (check your state laws, you may need to be 18 to get the motorcycle endorsement)
In my state only class one bikes (pedal assist, assist stops at 20mph) may be ridden in bike lanes or shared use paths). Each state has different laws though so check yours (and check again next year as the laws are changing)
I think we might be confusing bike types. The one I have checks out under the Class 3 e-bike specs. 28 mph max, 750W sustained motor, and no license or plates needed.
Anything above that is absolutely a motorcycle though, and will need license and registration.
there are 3 different ebike types. In my state only class one or two may be used on bike paths and sidewalks (class 2 also allowed when limited to 12mph top speed - the article says 20mph…) Class 3 is not allowed on bike paths and sidewalks, you don’t need a drivers license but you must be at least 16 to use them. laws may be different in your state though, so check first.
In any case this article is about bikes that don’t even meet the class 3 limits. They are motorcycles and you need license and registration - which you may not be able to get (to get registration I think you need a VIN which these probably don’t have - but then again I haven’t checked either the laws much less if these bikes meet those laws)
Shit, I ride my folding bicycle on grass and the tires are only 1.75".
I’m sure the kids will be distraught by the mistake!
And some will end up dead because they wore a bicycle helmet on something that can go 65mph.
What’s a helmet?
https://www.rei.com/product/167943/smith-convoy-mips-bike-helmet
For second I thought I misspelled it.
Give a normal acoustic bike a steep enough hill and you can get to 65mph. Note that I said you: I won’t try this, but someone else could - they might even survive the attempt.
65 is tough. Fastest I’ve gone on a bike is 50 mph, and it was terrifying.
Sure, but that’s pretty restricted to specific geography most people would have to travel to, and not the road outside thier home.
The first time I rode a dirt bike I panicked and crashed into a chain link fence. Going maybe 5 mph, and that was with adult supervision. I hate to think what will happen to these children who are accidentally given a road vehicle because the regulations are currently inadequate.
🥺💔💀
Uh… They’re not the same thing? 🤔
Got two wheels? Electrically powered? That’s an electronic bicycle. 🤷♂️
Everything sounds the same if you strip it down to such a basic description, yeah?
In that sense, this is a bus.
This is a dog
And this is a crocodile
Fundamentally, what different an ebike make is really just their power output and the maximum speed it capable of, and it’s defined different from country to country. Some place in US made everything as an ebike if they have pedal, but in some other country, they define it via the power output, the speed it’s able to go, and the existence of a throttle, and if anything that goes beyond that limit it’s either defined as a class 3 ebike, s-pedelec, or a moped. It’s kinda like how scientist trying to define what is what, even though some animal look more closely than what it supposed to be(like shark and dolphin?)
one is 160w, the other is 900w.
one goes 15-20mph, the other goes 50-55mph.
big difference when you’re giving one to your kid.
“Just go easy on the throttle, you’ll be 'aight.”
Conventionally, bicycles require the rider to provide the power through leg movement, whereas motorcycles require the rider to twist a handle.
Ebikes have blurred the line here with some having pedal assist and others having throttle control. It’s not as cut and dry as everything with two wheels and an electric motor being the same thing.
with some having pedal assist and others having throttle control.
Some have both. Like Onyx bikes. They have vestigial pedals and a throttle. Tried peddling one without the throttle and it was like peddling a bike underwater
I’m uncertain if you tried pedalling an Onyx ebike that had a throttle you didn’t use while riding it, or if you tried peddling some other ebike that had power assist but no throttle control.
Either way, something with pedal assist shouldn’t feel like riding underwater even if the battery is dead. Similar to an escalator becoming stairs in a power failure, an ebike should just become a bike. Though it would be noticeably heavier.
I suppose how well it does unpowered is more an indication of build quality though. Certainly some ebikes are so shoddy they are practically unrideable when the battery is depleted.
Happening around me and one of them is going to be squashed like a bug based on how they are riding them. Editing to add the hilarious downvotes while describing exactly what is happening here lmao. Yeah, the 15 year old ripping into traffic isn’t going to be hit by a car at all.
Cars should give way to bikes, especially a kid on a bike.
Should yes but they are acting like kids and have no idea what can happen
15 year old is a kid, unless u are talking about the cars
