What we have called “motorcycles” should actually be called “enginecycles”. Also, the engine on enginecycles is a four-cycle engine.
I live in south east asia and motorbikes are the dominant transporation tool here and yes fast e-bikes are absolutely motorbikes. They would be treated here the same way and law wise but the adoption is very low because compared to a motorbike it’s mostly a meme/entertainment vehicle as good ol motorbike is far superior and actually cheaper vehicle.
Great video by Fort9 about this topic
Really? Because I don’t remember pedaling my Honda 750.
I don’t remember pedaling my eBike, either. With a big enough motor, they’re all but completely vestigal.
Can we use the same logic for motorscooters?
Upvote for the main thought, but
- A gasoline engine is a type of motor. You are making a distinction without a difference. A motor is just something that produces mechanical motion. Motor. Motion. Motivate. All come from the same root as “move”
- An “engine” can be the whole apparatus that does the work, not merely the thing that provides the power, and could be powered by a water, beast, or even manually such as the cotton [en]gin[e]. A lot of that usage comes from pre WW2, but it survives in things like “train engine” (the vehicle that pushes or pulls a train) and “game engine” (the program architecture that manages the processing power provided by the computer to convert user interactions, game assets, etc. into something that we recognize as a game).
- It’s not a four-cycle engine. It is a four-stroke engine: each piston makes four strokes each complete engine cycle.
Wow, you absolutely destroyed that kid
I… I…
sometimes I underestimate the power of my own pedantry…
To your point, “engine” at one time referred specifically to an electrically driven device, and “motor” referred to something combustion driven.
Etymologically, engine means “mechanical device” and motor originates in Latin meaning “mover”.
I do agree with OP that a 2 wheel contrivance with any kind of motor/engine is a motorcycle (motorized cycle) from a regulatory perspective, though I’d never call one a motorcycle.
I’m a bit triggered by this, so let me apologize in advance for the incoming rant.
You might be kind of right etymologically, but bikes, e-bikes, motorcycles, and likely in the near future e-motos, are specific things defined by law. The confusion between these vehicle classes is causing harm.
An e-bike is a pedal powered bicycle with an electric motor that assists the rider while pedalling up to 25km/h. You might be able to switch modes between more assistance and less assistance but there is no throttle.
If you purchase a cheap walmart / k-mart bike, swap the rear wheel with a powered hub from alibaba and strap on a battery from temu, that’s not an e-bike. They have a throttle and no limiter and in most cases can propel a 12 year old idiot at 50km/h but some times more than 70km/h. This is not an e-bike and more accurately described as an unregulated electric motorbike.
The frame isn’t built for this kind of stress, and the riders often have no capacity to understand the danger they’re imposing on themselves and others - zipping past kids playing and so on.
It’s an emerging disaster in Australia and I imagine other places as well. It’s turning the population against e-bikes when they’re not the problem.
We urgently need more appropriate legislation drafted to clearly define the classes of vehicle, and we need police with the right skills and equipment to enforce those laws.
Your definition is just yours - I see ebikes doing 35mph+ on the sidewalk all the time.
How do I know they’re going that fast? Because that’s how fast I’m going on the street, and I’m not passing them.
Sorry you may not have understood me correctly.
In Australia and most other jurisdictions an “e-bike” is defined by law as a bike with pedal assist up to 25km/h.
If a bike has an electric motor which is propelling it faster than that, then it is by definition not an e-bike. It’s most likely an unregulated electric motorbike, or e-moto. They’re incredibly dangerous for everyone involved.
This is the correct take.
My feeling is that if it’s controlled by a throttle, then it’s a motorbike and it should be registered and require a driver’s licence to operate, and it shouldn’t be on bike paths or footpaths.
Yeah that’s the implication, but it’s complicated.
e-scooters are controlled by a throttle, so I think there’s a debate to be had as to whether that’s a defining factor.
IMO the throttle is less critical than speed limiting. Anything you can pilot without a license should be restricted to 25km/h.
The problem is these limitations can easily be removed.
That’s why I say it really needs proper policing. You need cops on bikes, and some kind of strategy to establish whether a bike is compliant.
My bro in Berlin mentioned that infrequently the police will see up a rolling road device to stop ebikes, electric scooters etc (anything that by law is speed restricted).
They do it on a one way road where you can’t see them, with police at the top end to stop anyone that’s clearly seen and turned around to avoid it
Yeah I’ve seen photos of something like this. The one I saw was UK police I think.
This might work in high traffic areas but where I am there just isn’t enough people on bikes to set up something like this.
If the po-po stop a kid on a bike they believe is illegally modified, just confiscate and impound it where it can be assessed.
No one cares if a bike can propel you 3km/h over the limit because you changed the tyre diameter. Even if you updated the software to remove the limiter, that’s not really going to make much difference to safety if I’m honest. It’s the bikes with throttles and big hub motors that spin you up to 20 or 30km/h over the limit that are the problem.
Yeah the entire nomenclature does a terrible job of differentiating what really matters in vehicle type as a law regulation category. As far as i can see the main factors should be:
- Number of wheels
- Size dimensions
- Weight
- Top speed
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a kid riding an actual e-bike, they are never pedaling when I see them …
Me neither. There’s probably several reasons you wouldn’t buy a child a proper e-bike.
Mostly just the cost I guess. A proper e-bike is twice the cost of a home made e-whatever. Also less fun than their friend’s e-whatevers.
I’ve been following the surron and talaria bikes. These are electric dirt motorcycle. Half the vidoes I’ve seen are ppl riding them on the street. They’ve gotten so fast. They write all over their websites its for OFF ROAD USE ONLY. I want one so bad. Im sure if I ride them slowly on the sidewalk for my commute. I shouldn’t get pulled over.
Depending on where you are you might be able to get a road legal one. Talaria and Surron have both sold road legal versions of some of their models here in Australia, I believe they’ve also done so in the UK and I did read something about some US states letting you register them once appropriate lights are installed.
Of course this does require you to treat them as a motorbike and keep off footpaths, have the appropriate licence, etc. Once you’ve got the licence you can ride other motorbikes as well though so I don’t see this as a downside (it’s an enjoyable method of transport and more people should do it).
I’m at the uncool end of that trend in the UK. I dumped my car 4yrs back and got an electric vespa-shaped vehicle. I already had my full bike licence which helped make it an easy decision but even in our weather really enjoyable and nsanely cheap motoring
The confusion between these things is causing harm
Seems like one possible solution should be calling motorcycles enginecycles so there’s no confusion.
Changing the name of an existing system is a non-starter. That’s why the new entry is called something else: ebike.
I think this would generate a lot of confusion.
Depending on State, a small enough engine on a bicycle doesn’t count as a motor vehicle.
Isn’t it the electric equivalent of a moped?
You’re right but the word “moped” has lost meaning in most countries.
Here in the UK I suspect the majority of people asked wouldn’t appreciate it originally had pedals and would point to a vespa image if asked.
I have an electric vespa-shaped vehicle (goes about 80kmh) that as you can see i really struggle to name as “electric scooter” most people think of one of those stand on things so I’ve landed on calling it an “electric moped”. It works as equally in no way can someone accuse me of trying to make it sound cool :)
Enginecycles? If you specifically refer to internal combustion engine (ICE) then it’d make sense to call them icecycles. It sounds weird, maybe icicles?
But seriously EU has a definition of what an ebike is, it’s not just a bicycle with motor, there’s max allowed power, max assistance level, and importantly it should only assist when pedalling. Anything beyond that, yes, is classified as a motorbike.
OP thinking he cracked the code to ride a motorcycle on the sidewalk.
Not all the time. My engine cycle has a three cylinder 2 stroke. It’s scary fast.
Upvote for the thought.
This is actually a really good one.
Not all motos are 4 stroke. My buddy rides a two stroke KTM and that thing cooks.
The difference is in power and control. Ebikes are speed capped. There are two types, pedal assist and throttle control. Pedel assist are ones that only turn on the motor when you are pedaling. Throttle control ebikes are speed capped even more than pedal assist. I think they should be banned because of jailbreaking and it puts you in the mental state of operating a machine rather than pedaling a bike.
Also, the engine on enginecycles is a four-cycle engine.
Electric motorbikes are a thing too.
You can buy e-bikes on amazon that weigh more and travel faster than a Honda Cub, a registerable motorcycle. They’re in Grom territory. This idea, at least in the US market, that they’re fitting into the two classes of safe e-bike is disproven with 30 seconds of observation in any city or adjacent suburb. The only riders pedaling are the leisure riders in parks.
Fortnine has two videos on the topic, one of the 60mph e-bike and one of converting a Cub to EV, making it faster than stock.
Yes you can buy illegal things and break the law. Like really?
Or you’re talking about electric motorbikes, which are not ebikes they are electric motorbikes.
Is an e-scooter a motorcycle?
In Australia at least, e-scooters are classed as ‘personal mobility device’ which is the same classification that motorised wheelchairs are in.
Huh, I guess that makes sense. I don’t think they fit into any category in Denver, CO. They aren’t allowed on the sidewalks so that makes them a vehicle. But they really aren’t a vehicle and are sort of pedestrians in the road.
