What we have called “motorcycles” should actually be called “enginecycles”. Also, the engine on enginecycles is a four-cycle engine.
some of the cooler enginecycles comes with two-cycle engines
Great video by Fort9 about this topic
I live in south east asia and motorbikes are the dominant transporation tool here and yes fast e-bikes are absolutely motorbikes. They would be treated here the same way and law wise but the adoption is very low because compared to a motorbike it’s mostly a meme/entertainment vehicle as good ol motorbike is far superior and actually cheaper vehicle.
Really? Because I don’t remember pedaling my Honda 750.
I don’t remember pedaling my eBike, either. With a big enough motor, they’re all but completely vestigal.
eBikes require pedaling. I don’t know what you had, but it wasn’t an eBike.
Can we use the same logic for motorscooters?
Upvote for the main thought, but
- A gasoline engine is a type of motor. You are making a distinction without a difference. A motor is just something that produces mechanical motion. Motor. Motion. Motivate. All come from the same root as “move”
- An “engine” can be the whole apparatus that does the work, not merely the thing that provides the power, and could be powered by a water, beast, or even manually such as the cotton [en]gin[e]. A lot of that usage comes from pre WW2, but it survives in things like “train engine” (the vehicle that pushes or pulls a train) and “game engine” (the program architecture that manages the processing power provided by the computer to convert user interactions, game assets, etc. into something that we recognize as a game).
- It’s not a four-cycle engine. It is a four-stroke engine: each piston makes four strokes each complete engine cycle.
I didn’t know what to say but you nabbed it.
Also reminds me of the motor effect: electromagnetism causing motion. Perhaps that’s why the name ‘electric motor’ became so dominant…
Wow, you absolutely destroyed that kid
I… I…
sometimes I underestimate the power of my own pedantry…
To your point, “engine” at one time referred specifically to an electrically driven device, and “motor” referred to something combustion driven.
Etymologically, engine means “mechanical device” and motor originates in Latin meaning “mover”.
I do agree with OP that a 2 wheel contrivance with any kind of motor/engine is a motorcycle (motorized cycle) from a regulatory perspective, though I’d never call one a motorcycle.
I’m a bit triggered by this, so let me apologize in advance for the incoming rant.
You might be kind of right etymologically, but bikes, e-bikes, motorcycles, and likely in the near future e-motos, are specific things defined by law. The confusion between these vehicle classes is causing harm.
An e-bike is a pedal powered bicycle with an electric motor that assists the rider while pedalling up to 25km/h. You might be able to switch modes between more assistance and less assistance but there is no throttle.
If you purchase a cheap walmart / k-mart bike, swap the rear wheel with a powered hub from alibaba and strap on a battery from temu, that’s not an e-bike. They have a throttle and no limiter and in most cases can propel a 12 year old idiot at 50km/h but some times more than 70km/h. This is not an e-bike and more accurately described as an unregulated electric motorbike.
The frame isn’t built for this kind of stress, and the riders often have no capacity to understand the danger they’re imposing on themselves and others - zipping past kids playing and so on.
It’s an emerging disaster in Australia and I imagine other places as well. It’s turning the population against e-bikes when they’re not the problem.
We urgently need more appropriate legislation drafted to clearly define the classes of vehicle, and we need police with the right skills and equipment to enforce those laws.
This is the correct take.
My feeling is that if it’s controlled by a throttle, then it’s a motorbike and it should be registered and require a driver’s licence to operate, and it shouldn’t be on bike paths or footpaths.
Yeah that’s the implication, but it’s complicated.
e-scooters are controlled by a throttle, so I think there’s a debate to be had as to whether that’s a defining factor.
IMO the throttle is less critical than speed limiting. Anything you can pilot without a license should be restricted to 25km/h.
The problem is these limitations can easily be removed.
That’s why I say it really needs proper policing. You need cops on bikes, and some kind of strategy to establish whether a bike is compliant.
My bro in Berlin mentioned that infrequently the police will see up a rolling road device to stop ebikes, electric scooters etc (anything that by law is speed restricted).
They do it on a one way road where you can’t see them, with police at the top end to stop anyone that’s clearly seen and turned around to avoid it
Fatbikes, you mean? They’re no longer eBikes.
OP has made this quite clear. Do y’all read?
No, I mean ebikes. I made no reference to fat bikes. An ebike is legally allowed on the roads of most of Europe (this includes fat bikes) providing they meet certain criteria. That includes speed and power restrictions. Where they exceed those that are illegal and the authorities are making efforts to impound them.
Yeah I’ve seen photos of something like this. The one I saw was UK police I think.
This might work in high traffic areas but where I am there just isn’t enough people on bikes to set up something like this.
If the po-po stop a kid on a bike they believe is illegally modified, just confiscate and impound it where it can be assessed.
No one cares if a bike can propel you 3km/h over the limit because you changed the tyre diameter. Even if you updated the software to remove the limiter, that’s not really going to make much difference to safety if I’m honest. It’s the bikes with throttles and big hub motors that spin you up to 20 or 30km/h over the limit that are the problem.
Yup, agreed. I’m out in the sticks too, years back I tried to commute the 17 or so miles each way on a gravel bike with a conversion but keeping legal with a 250w motor it just didn’t do anything as there was no stop:starting and I was generally travelling at over the 15.5mph limit so just carrying extra weight.
Not sure why I mention as it’s a use case error on my part but I do wish I’d got a meatier motor, derestricted it and taken my chances.
Yeah I have a big heavy cannondale cargowagen.
It’s a long tail, so both my kids can sit on the back. System weight is probably 150kg with all three of us on board. By the time we wind up to 25km/h the torque provided by the motor is pretty minimal honestly.
It’s comfortable at 40km/h on a downhill slope.
I would’ve already figured out how to remove the limiter if I thought it would be helpful but… I just don’t really think it would make much difference.
Yeah the entire nomenclature does a terrible job of differentiating what really matters in vehicle type as a law regulation category. As far as i can see the main factors should be:
- Number of wheels
- Size dimensions
- Weight
- Top speed
Your definition is just yours - I see ebikes doing 35mph+ on the sidewalk all the time.
How do I know they’re going that fast? Because that’s how fast I’m going on the street, and I’m not passing them.
No, you’re not.
Sorry you may not have understood me correctly.
In Australia and most other jurisdictions an “e-bike” is defined by law as a bike with pedal assist up to 25km/h.
If a bike has an electric motor which is propelling it faster than that, then it is by definition not an e-bike. It’s most likely an unregulated electric motorbike, or e-moto. They’re incredibly dangerous for everyone involved.
In Australia and most other jurisdictions an “e-bike” is defined by law as a bike with pedal assist up to 25km/h.
I’m pretty sure they’re intentionally conflating them to either downplay the risks of unregulated electric motorcycles, or as some odd kind of anti-bike push, depending on the person making the argument.
The news is constantly bemoaning the dangers of e-bikes, while actually talking about motorcycles, too many times for it to be accidental.
I think it’s just a news story that the people who watch news (boomers) like to hear as it confirms their world view.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a kid riding an actual e-bike, they are never pedaling when I see them …
Me neither. There’s probably several reasons you wouldn’t buy a child a proper e-bike.
Mostly just the cost I guess. A proper e-bike is twice the cost of a home made e-whatever. Also less fun than their friend’s e-whatevers.
I’ve been following the surron and talaria bikes. These are electric dirt motorcycle. Half the vidoes I’ve seen are ppl riding them on the street. They’ve gotten so fast. They write all over their websites its for OFF ROAD USE ONLY. I want one so bad. Im sure if I ride them slowly on the sidewalk for my commute. I shouldn’t get pulled over.
Depending on where you are you might be able to get a road legal one. Talaria and Surron have both sold road legal versions of some of their models here in Australia, I believe they’ve also done so in the UK and I did read something about some US states letting you register them once appropriate lights are installed.
Of course this does require you to treat them as a motorbike and keep off footpaths, have the appropriate licence, etc. Once you’ve got the licence you can ride other motorbikes as well though so I don’t see this as a downside (it’s an enjoyable method of transport and more people should do it).
I’m at the uncool end of that trend in the UK. I dumped my car 4yrs back and got an electric vespa-shaped vehicle. I already had my full bike licence which helped make it an easy decision but even in our weather really enjoyable and nsanely cheap motoring
The confusion between these things is causing harm
Seems like one possible solution should be calling motorcycles enginecycles so there’s no confusion.
Changing the name of an existing system is a non-starter. That’s why the new entry is called something else: ebike.
I think this would generate a lot of confusion.
Enginecycles? If you specifically refer to internal combustion engine (ICE) then it’d make sense to call them icecycles. It sounds weird, maybe icicles?
But seriously EU has a definition of what an ebike is, it’s not just a bicycle with motor, there’s max allowed power, max assistance level, and importantly it should only assist when pedalling. Anything beyond that, yes, is classified as a motorbike.
OP thinking he cracked the code to ride a motorcycle on the sidewalk.
Isn’t it the electric equivalent of a moped?
No. Because you have to pedal.
You’re right but the word “moped” has lost meaning in most countries.
Here in the UK I suspect the majority of people asked wouldn’t appreciate it originally had pedals and would point to a vespa image if asked.
I have an electric vespa-shaped vehicle (goes about 80kmh) that as you can see i really struggle to name as “electric scooter” most people think of one of those stand on things so I’ve landed on calling it an “electric moped”. It works as equally in no way can someone accuse me of trying to make it sound cool :)
Depending on State, a small enough engine on a bicycle doesn’t count as a motor vehicle.
Not all the time. My engine cycle has a three cylinder 2 stroke. It’s scary fast.
This is actually a really good one.
Upvote for the thought.
Is an e-scooter a motorcycle?
In Australia at least, e-scooters are classed as ‘personal mobility device’ which is the same classification that motorised wheelchairs are in.
In Germany they have to have a license plate, which means they’re basically treated as mopeds. Ebikes don’t need one.
Huh, I guess that makes sense. I don’t think they fit into any category in Denver, CO. They aren’t allowed on the sidewalks so that makes them a vehicle. But they really aren’t a vehicle and are sort of pedestrians in the road.
Not all motos are 4 stroke. My buddy rides a two stroke KTM and that thing cooks.
