In the USA liberal is the term used to describe progressives. I believe that’s what they mean.
Any Joe Schmoe on the street in the USA will use it that way. They do not know the dictionary/philosophical definition of the term, that people on Lemmy beat on relentlessly.
In the USA liberal is the term used to describe progressives.
No we don’t. We use that to describe democrats who pretend to lean left while being conservative in all but name. Actual progressives get called other things like anarchists, dirty commies, or unamerican.
Do I get tired of the majority deciding what words mean? Not really. That’s how language has always worked, and the only way it can work as far as I can tell.
This person is right. It’s a fact. You and your circles may not use it that way, and that’s correct… But that doesn’t change what the common understanding is.
Expressing socialism in the USA is already hard. It’s harder when people are angry at anyone because they aren’t using the words you want.
Eh. If you’re in the know, then yes, you’re correct, but your average American probably doesn’t even understand that there’s any distinction at all, and so for those people “liberal” is the catch-all term for progressives.
If someone who actually understands politics calls me a liberal, I’m gonna protest. If my dumbfuck uncle calls me a liberal, I’ll let it lie, because that’s as close as he’s reasonably going to get to understanding my political views.
progressives understand the difference, not our fault the rest of the nation is uneducated,fuck it’s their fault schools are underfunded and refuse to learn
Like class, political philosophy is tied to who owns things. Who controls the means of production.
“Progressive” is a meaningless term for those who think capitalism can be reformed, but think enough activity can make neoliberalsim not do what capitalism always does, accumulate for the private holders.
Basically in the Midwest anyone who is not conservative/GOP is called liberal. From center to Marx himself, all libs. It is confusing being on Lemmy where classic liberalism is used.
Yeah, cause that’s how those on the right view anyone left of them. The Overton Window has shifted way too far right that both capitalist neoliberals and socialists get called liberal socialists by the right despite that literally being an oxymoron.
Neo-liberalism as well. The foundation of discussion of politics is so uprooted it takes an entire other discussion to explain and use proper terminology.
Liberals are conservatives, they want the status quo. Progressives seek to fix broken liberal policies and structures.
There is this thing where conservatives call Democratic people liberals as a pejorative. This is nonsense though as most conservatives very much support liberal structures like the system of law.
I swear. You get on the Internet and people just want to be angry and espouse their views without understanding what they’ve read in the first place.
I explained what I believe the reasoning behind the parent comment is. Nothing more. I’m not stating my personal belief or understanding of the word.
I KNOW what a liberal is by definition. It’s NOT USED THAT WAY in the USA common discourse.
People talking about their progressive circles and how the word “liberal” gets used are missing my point too. I’m not talking about correct usage, I’m taking about common usage. The news, day to day conversation with people outside your bubble.
Amongst many Democratic people the word is generally viewed as positive.
Are all Dems conservative in your view then? Or did you mean something else by this?
The news, co-workers, and people I’ve talked to out and about in the 5 different states I’ve lived in or regularly visit use it to mean ANYTHING “left”.
Yes, that is very common usage of the word for ignorant conservatives. I lived for five years on SE rural Idaho and liberal there was an insult.
I grew up in Seattle and there liberal wasn’t an insult because most people knew what it actually means.
So essentially liberal is a bad word for progressives who view them as fake for a number of reasons and conservatives who don’t understand what the word means but dislike it because they were told it was bad word.
Most Democratic people are conservative and would be considered traditionally liberal. The strict definition of liberal is rooted in classical liberalism, emphasizing individual rights, democracy, a secular state, and free-market capitalism with limited government interference.
It’s been used that way for over a century if you look up articles like social liberalism which will explain to you that in that terminology, things like access to affordable healthcare and education are actually important because it’s liberalism as in liberties of the individuals living in said society, not liberties of corporations.
Liberty means very different things to different people and in many cases liberty as it is understood in the US is not compatible with social liberalism. Most conservatives, for example, view it as freedom from the government and rules. Imposing something like universal healthcare would be taking away their liberties and choice.
The term progressive was invented to literally differentiate from liberals along the conservative to progressive axis. Liberals by definition don’t want systemic change, they just want to be liberal in spending towards social services and regulations, but keep the capitalist structure underneath.
Liberals want freedom of some kind: liberalism; liberty. That may be freedom for individuals or for companies. It may be a negative “freedom from interference” or positive “freedom to achieve ones desires”. That variety is what gives it its many practical meanings
I say “I believe that’s what they mean” in the second clause…
I’m my second statement, I expand on that. I explain WHY that’s what I BELIEVE they mean. I point out that a lot of people in the USA don’t know the actual definition. Implying I KNOW THE DEFINITION. BUT words have different meaning in different cultures. Which is why I explain it in the first place…
“They do not know the dictionary/philosophical definition of the term, that people on Lemmy beat on relentlessly.”
This frames average americans as victims of Lemmy users explaining the definition of words to them. The average american is a dip sniffing, catcalling, big truck driving asshole with a chip on their shoulder because they have to live next to people that are different from them. I’m an American who’s lived here my whole life all across the country. What you’re saying doesn’t hit AT ALL
Failing to see how that applies here
In the USA liberal is the term used to describe progressives. I believe that’s what they mean.
Any Joe Schmoe on the street in the USA will use it that way. They do not know the dictionary/philosophical definition of the term, that people on Lemmy beat on relentlessly.
No we don’t. We use that to describe democrats who pretend to lean left while being conservative in all but name. Actual progressives get called other things like anarchists, dirty commies, or unamerican.
That may be true for you, but not most Americans. Your corporeal body may exist in the US, but you live online.
Hey dude, right here with you. So many arm chair revolutionaries online.
People so stuck on a single meaning of a word, completely ignoring the facts.
Words have multiple meanings sometimes. Whether that’s cultural or just from misuse. Doesn’t matter.
The majority gets to decide so many things for you. You ever get tired of that?
Do I get tired of the majority deciding what words mean? Not really. That’s how language has always worked, and the only way it can work as far as I can tell.
I’m talking about this part doofus:
I don’t let the shit the dumbest people in the country do determine what’s right for me, except perhaps as a negative example.
Why are you being mean? Why are you angry?
This person is right. It’s a fact. You and your circles may not use it that way, and that’s correct… But that doesn’t change what the common understanding is.
Expressing socialism in the USA is already hard. It’s harder when people are angry at anyone because they aren’t using the words you want.
Don’t forget the most damning and horrific title of “socialist”
Eh. If you’re in the know, then yes, you’re correct, but your average American probably doesn’t even understand that there’s any distinction at all, and so for those people “liberal” is the catch-all term for progressives.
If someone who actually understands politics calls me a liberal, I’m gonna protest. If my dumbfuck uncle calls me a liberal, I’ll let it lie, because that’s as close as he’s reasonably going to get to understanding my political views.
progressives understand the difference, not our fault the rest of the nation is uneducated,fuck it’s their fault schools are underfunded and refuse to learn
You don’t actually understand the difference.
Like class, political philosophy is tied to who owns things. Who controls the means of production.
“Progressive” is a meaningless term for those who think capitalism can be reformed, but think enough activity can make neoliberalsim not do what capitalism always does, accumulate for the private holders.
Basically in the Midwest anyone who is not conservative/GOP is called liberal. From center to Marx himself, all libs. It is confusing being on Lemmy where classic liberalism is used.
Yeah, cause that’s how those on the right view anyone left of them. The Overton Window has shifted way too far right that both capitalist neoliberals and socialists get called liberal socialists by the right despite that literally being an oxymoron.
Neo-liberalism as well. The foundation of discussion of politics is so uprooted it takes an entire other discussion to explain and use proper terminology.
K
bullshit. I hang out in progressives circles, every single American progressive world be insulted if I they are called liberal.
K
Liberals are conservatives, they want the status quo. Progressives seek to fix broken liberal policies and structures.
There is this thing where conservatives call Democratic people liberals as a pejorative. This is nonsense though as most conservatives very much support liberal structures like the system of law.
I swear. You get on the Internet and people just want to be angry and espouse their views without understanding what they’ve read in the first place.
I explained what I believe the reasoning behind the parent comment is. Nothing more. I’m not stating my personal belief or understanding of the word.
I KNOW what a liberal is by definition. It’s NOT USED THAT WAY in the USA common discourse.
People talking about their progressive circles and how the word “liberal” gets used are missing my point too. I’m not talking about correct usage, I’m taking about common usage. The news, day to day conversation with people outside your bubble.
What you refer to as the common usage in the US is not common amongst anyone but ignorant conservatives. I clarified that for you.
Amongst many Democratic people the word is generally viewed as positive.
Are all Dems conservative in your view then? Or did you mean something else by this?
The news, co-workers, and people I’ve talked to out and about in the 5 different states I’ve lived in or regularly visit use it to mean ANYTHING “left”.
Edit: fixed some typos
Yes, that is very common usage of the word for ignorant conservatives. I lived for five years on SE rural Idaho and liberal there was an insult.
I grew up in Seattle and there liberal wasn’t an insult because most people knew what it actually means.
So essentially liberal is a bad word for progressives who view them as fake for a number of reasons and conservatives who don’t understand what the word means but dislike it because they were told it was bad word.
Most Democratic people are conservative and would be considered traditionally liberal. The strict definition of liberal is rooted in classical liberalism, emphasizing individual rights, democracy, a secular state, and free-market capitalism with limited government interference.
It’s been used that way for over a century if you look up articles like social liberalism which will explain to you that in that terminology, things like access to affordable healthcare and education are actually important because it’s liberalism as in liberties of the individuals living in said society, not liberties of corporations.
I see your point and I agree for the most part.
Liberty means very different things to different people and in many cases liberty as it is understood in the US is not compatible with social liberalism. Most conservatives, for example, view it as freedom from the government and rules. Imposing something like universal healthcare would be taking away their liberties and choice.
The people this meme is talking about typically would not consider themselves progressive either. That it is a flavor of liberal
Take it easy on him – he can’t imagine anyone being further left than a ‘progressive’.
Just because someone is using a term with its own meanings and definition horribly incorrectly doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to perpetrate it.
My god, I’m merely explaining the original comment someone else made.
I know the pedantry is expected, but maybe we can take a step back and read intent before smashing faces into our respective keyboards?
The term progressive was invented to literally differentiate from liberals along the conservative to progressive axis. Liberals by definition don’t want systemic change, they just want to be liberal in spending towards social services and regulations, but keep the capitalist structure underneath.
Liberals want freedom of some kind: liberalism; liberty. That may be freedom for individuals or for companies. It may be a negative “freedom from interference” or positive “freedom to achieve ones desires”. That variety is what gives it its many practical meanings
You see that explanation you gave? I’m going to assume it’s correct.
But that doesn’t change the fact that those terms get used as synonyms by a lot of people in the USA.
And besides that point… I was only trying to explain what the original comment was pointing to.
No, liberals actively fight against progressives in the US.
The rest of the world uses the actual dictionary definition. “America uses its own definition so that must be more correct” is pretty damn yankee
Never argued that it was more correct…
I’m merely explaining the original comment someone else made.
I know the pedantry is expected, but maybe we can take a step back and read intent before smashing faces into our respective keyboards?
Your intent isn’t easily demonstrable.
In the first statement, I have 2 clauses.
I say “I believe that’s what they mean” in the second clause…
I’m my second statement, I expand on that. I explain WHY that’s what I BELIEVE they mean. I point out that a lot of people in the USA don’t know the actual definition. Implying I KNOW THE DEFINITION. BUT words have different meaning in different cultures. Which is why I explain it in the first place…
I never say it’s correct. I’m stating a fact.
“They do not know the dictionary/philosophical definition of the term, that people on Lemmy beat on relentlessly.”
This frames average americans as victims of Lemmy users explaining the definition of words to them. The average american is a dip sniffing, catcalling, big truck driving asshole with a chip on their shoulder because they have to live next to people that are different from them. I’m an American who’s lived here my whole life all across the country. What you’re saying doesn’t hit AT ALL
Ok. The average American has no idea about Lemmy, so no.
This entire thread makes my point…
You just want to be
angrymean. Great. Enjoy your rant.Edit: fixed. This person is not angry. They just like to be mean.
You’re a moron, no I don’t just “want to be angry” you’re dumb so you perceive me as angry. I’m going to the volcano today, I’m in a great mood lol