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I’ll always remember this one time in the 1990s when my family and I were watching some medical documentary on cable TV. There was footage of a trans woman getting top surgery, and they showed the medical details and cutting of her uncovered chest with no problem, but the instant the breast implant was slipped beneath the patient’s skin they blurred out the nipple because it became unsuitable for unedited broadcast at that moment.
i think about that moment a lot.
gender affirming censorship
Trust me when I say this: none of the right-wing media/politicians, will understand that they’ve made any points on behalf of the protestors by blurring the “men’s” nipples.
Also, saying men can go around topless but not women, is sexist. Any such law should be removed. We should all be equal in the eyes of the law. With that said: that shouldn’t imply that women should go around topless. It should just be legally allowed. I’m a guy, but I don’t think I need to explain to anyone the potential complications from going around topless as a woman… Whether trans or not.
The whole situation is dumb. Society needs to do better. We’re all people. Let’s keep that in mind and treat everyone the same, based on the fact that they are a human person in society. No legal separation of sex, gender, race, religion, or anything else. If you are a human person, you should have the same rights and freedoms as every other human person.
I’m a guy, but I don’t think I need to explain to anyone the potential complications from going around topless as a woman… Whether trans or not.
It’s normal and fairly mundane for men to go topless in virtually all societies, however, there are a good number of cultures where it is also normal for women to be topless. If it is normal and mundane for women to be topless, then it becomes a non-issue eventually. It’s only racy because we’re trained in our culture to find it racy.
In the late 90s or early aughts here in Canada women challenged and won the right to go topless as well as men. I can’t recall seeing in person any women exercising that right myself, and it won’t surprise me if the religions conservatives here have managed to overturn that directly or indirectly, but as a teenager/young adult i thought it was cool at the time that Canada fixed that inequality
Didn’t really have a point here just felt like sharing
OH! Finally! A chance to use my knowledge acquired from scrolling wikipedia while procrastinating! That law hasn’t been overturned and is still, well, law. Of course every once in a while some clueless cop (because why should somebody enforcing the law, know the law sigh) will ask a topless sunbather to cover up. Here’s the article.
You won’t find disagreement here.
The fact of the matter is that the change won’t happen overnight; and there’s already a disproportional number of assaults against women, even if they’re fully dressed when the assault begins.
While the argument of “she was asking for it” relating to what someone is wearing, is entirely bullshit and without any merit, and the fact that it’s on the male culture to… Idk, not be rapists, and not encourage rapists and rapist tenancies; I know plenty of women that don’t want to risk encouraging such behavior against themselves. Whether they should need to or not isn’t material to the point. They don’t feel safe otherwise.
I’m not going to tell anyone what to wear. I will say that maybe people just shouldn’t rape other people, regardless of circumstances. No, not maybe. They definitely should not, under any circumstances, ever rape anyone. Just don’t rape people.
Anyways. It would be a long road to get to the place you propose, and a lot of violence would likely happen before we would see the ideal that you are describing. I wish it was different, but I can’t change the world, I can only change myself.
True, however we are also trained to be everything. Literally whole law, moral system and everything about human society is subjective and made up. Should we pursue to deconstruct this subjectivity? No it is what allows us to function. However we should pursue equality in an egalitarian sense of every member of society.
Our subjective and made up rules should be equal for all members of the society and where they cannot be because they meet biological objectivity there they need to be humane and in best interest of the person in light of law so that the person can live with dignity and possess full autonomy unless judged to be stripped away from such
Saying ‘women shouldn’t go around topless’ isn’t allowing society to function. It’s sexist and demonizes women’s bodies in a way that promotes violence against women. Deconstruct your society or don’t, but don’t be surprised when you end up in a death camp because you thought it was fine to give second class person status to half your population.
It’s like on the last place of my problems but if this is what most people want then we should obviously change it. However something tells me that it’s not a problem and most people do not care if it wasn’t ever even voted on.
Loud minority screams “I wanna go naked on the streets” and honestly it’s one of the more ridiculous things. Let’s focus on real problems such as abortion and whole birth giver societal asymmetry and how to fairly address it to make society more egalitarian.
No one is seriously thinking “oh no I have to put my shirt on before going out, this is fascism” men and women alike aren’t going bare chested in the city in the streets because this is how we agreed. No one wants to see your saggy breasts and no one wants to see disgusting male beer bellies.
Go to the beach and there go topless all you want. That’s what I do anyway. We collectively agreed that this is where it is fine to do so. Or on your property, you can walk even completely naked all you want.
I know my one neighbor is every morning going naked on the balcony and has a huge cock so I guess it’s kind of confidence thing too. Generally he is built rather nicely to look at. Still his balcony so he can do whatever he wants no matter how attractive and I can go naked on my balcony too
However something tells me that it’s not a problem and most people do not care if it wasn’t ever even voted on.
No, actually people want equality. We’ve been fighting for it for centuries. We’ll be fighting for it as long as there are people who want to take it away.
Loud minority screams “I wanna go naked on the streets”
Men go topless all the time. The fact you need to bend over backwards here is an obvious demonstration that you are not arguing in good faith. @[email protected], do you see what I mean?
“oh no I have to put my shirt on before going out, this is fascism”
More of the same. Really stunning to watch a person tie themselves into knots for the sake of inequality. Some people really do hate women.
Go to the beach and there go topless all you want. That’s what I do anyway. We collectively agreed that this is where it is fine to do so. Or on your property, you can walk even completely naked all you want.
Women should be allowed to go topless wherever men can. See how it’s trivial to describe when the goal is equality. It’s inequality that adds needless complexity.
Radical gender centrist
This really says it all. The word you’re looking for is misogynist.
Sure I am misogynist cause I don’t wanna go with my tits out to the streets
It’s hard to believe there are actually people like you out there, somewhere. Counterproductive to any kind of movement. Sabotaging it over and over again. Derailing any semblance of productive equality action.
The kind of 2.5% support left that can never understand why people do not vote for them. Always surprised when bubble bursts, then outraged. Eternal victims.
Good luck to your bare tits cause
I want equality for all. You have to work so hard to try to fight that, it’s silly.
What you’re ranting about is what men do all the time all over the place, because it’s no big deal. It eventually will be that way for everyone.
Removed by mod
Why can’t trans women count as women? Trans women have historically faced even higher rates of discrimination than cis women.
I’ve never bought this notion that recognizing trans women as women in turn affects women’s rights or systems that support women. That’s like saying just because my 23 and me came back 1% African we should stop DEI because if everyone is diverse then it doesn’t make sense to support diversity. (I swear to God, if I get Trump jokes—).
Life is complicated and we’ve managed to evolve systems to handle it before, we can continue. If I can have 3 ways to sort my 401k or do my taxes then I can have a world where I’m a feminist and that includes trans women
It would have been icing on the cake if trans men would have been in the same protest, also topless, but they weren’t censored lol
To many in alt right groups, trans men don’t exist.
How do you mean?
Whenever there is an issue with anything relating to genders it’s always about trans women, not trans men.
They talk about trans women in women’s bathrooms, but never trans men in men’s bathroom. If they wanted your original gender, then you’d have trans men in women’s bathrooms. Basically someone that looks like a guy in the women’s bathroom.
They talk about trans women dominating women’s sports, even though there are literally none. But what about a sport where being a women, i.e. smaller and more flexible, is a benefit. Something like gymnastics.
Women are also on average a better shot, yet we don’t see discussions around trans men dominating gun or bow related sports.
There are many other examples, but generally the right always tries to attack trans women. It has to do with macho “manosphere” and equating anything less manly as a weak liberal thing.
Maybe there is another side to this toxic macho “manosphere” you mention.
After all, as a baseline men are by nature predisposed and culturally conditioned to protect and be considerate to women.
Despite all lamentation, Chivalry is not dead for some.
So obviously the sanctity of a woman’s restroom is more highly valued than that of a men’s bathroom. After all, women are more vulnerable and more often targeted in that way.
So the debate tends to skew towards women spaces, as those are more likely to cause public discord if disturbed.
Rarely are men stepping up on the soap crate to defend their own spaces. Because after all, they are strong enough to take any number of “inconveniences” and disadvantages because to admit to struggling with them would be weakness.
I’m not saying it’s fair, or right, or how it should be. But maybe that bias isn’t always driven by hostility. Maybe it’s just that society still places more weight on protecting women, while expecting men to grit their teeth and deal with it. Even when those same men help reinforce that standard among themselves.
It doesn’t make the imbalance okay, and it doesn’t mean the outrage is consistent. But it might explain why all the noise gets focused on trans women. It’s not just transphobia, it’s the scaffolding of gender roles, still quietly deciding who gets defended, and who’s expected to tough it out.
It seems absurd to conceptualize a “chivalrous transphobe”. But we are all more than just one label.
I agree, had thought of that before - it’s cognitive dissonance along the lines of “do I protect this person (who appears to be a woman but I’m not certain) or not (because they might not be)?” If society moved more to a model of ‘help people who need help’ it might improve matters.
I don’t really agree, because these people will absolutely defend their fragile “man” places. The manosphere is not something I just made up. It’s a complex network of influencers and media types. It’s why we have people such as Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate leading a generation of young men. It’s a gross perversion of what the right calls “being a real man”. It’s been discussed by phycologists and experts on men’s mental health. You should read up on it, but I warn you it’s a deep rabbit hole that may just piss you off how interconnected it is and supported by fascist authoritarians.
yeah, but they could have been arrested
I mean, cis dudes would work in that context too, no?
Not if the point is to make the government acknowledge their gender.
Legendary behavior. Bigots can choke on it
I haven’t thought about that gag from that show in a while. Thanks for posting this, was nice to be reminded of it
Duh and or hola
A lot of them do.
I’m reminded of the story of a couple comprised of a cis woman and a trans woman who wanted to get married in a state that was trying to forbid gay marriage. The state was in the position of either accepting that the trans woman was a woman and trying to forbid their marriage, or asserting that she was not in fact a woman but then allowing them to get married.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a brilliant catch-22 situation.
not catch 22
You are only allowed to show your nipples if you have no desire to show your nipples.
Catch 22 could work for breastfeeding.
Malicious compliance at its best.
A living edge case. I love it.
I guess the only solution is to free the nipple
The fact they just censored the nipples still 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
Fucking Genius
Damn, these people are bold as fuck. Get it!
In America most men are overweight or obese and have pendulous lumps on their chests with nipples attached. Personally I don’t love seeing them, but when the weather is right, they are all over the goddamn place. It’s absolutely ludicrous that women can’t do the same. If there were any logical rule it would be don’t show your chesticles unless you are a woman who uses them for feeding a child OR everybody gets to have their tits out regardless of any gender types. Pick one and go with it, but the current laws are base AF.
When I was in pre-K, on a really hot day, I remember asking why the boys got to take off their shirts but I couldn’t.
Now that I’ve had top surgery, I can be the fat hairy bearded guy that mows lawns shirtless. It’s nice.
I mow with a long sleeve that’s rated for 15spf, skin cancer is a real concern. Stay safe out there fam
The safety vs comfort rivalry
Sure, but it’s a ridiculous privilege. Let’s face it, many men have what meets the criteria for breasts. If we decide that breasts are outside of the Overton window then shirt those bitches up, all of them. If we are saying breasts on women are the only breasts outside the window then that’s just plain old discrimination. Shift the window or cover them all up until we are ready to let them all out.
I’m happy for you that it worked out in the end.
Austin actually has a city ordinance with more or less this exact logic. Once you’ve seen a dozen or so average women with their chests uncovered at the pool, it loses any excitement it may have initially held.
i don’t think that’s really true, people in the west generally don’t cover their faces and yet people find faces attractive anyways.
My preferred argument is just “if people find naked bodies so appealing why would you not want to see more of them?”
In other parts of the world nudity isn’t seen as a big deal or in some cases even unusual in certain settings. Americans are so afraid of seeing a titty or penis or whatever else.
I mean in some parts it’s not as big a deal yes. There are plenty of parts where it is like this. I think America is a good example primarily because so many American men have tits.
Isn’t it technically legal there for women to be topless, too?
Edit: a bit dated, but it seems that they can go topless only in a few state.
Everyone can choose to have their tits out!
My kind of party!
Here in Fort Collins, it’s tits out for all. Come all and welcome for those that would like their tits out.
Love the message, but the blurb isn’t correct. Police couldn’t not arrest them because it would define them as a woman, outraging public decency and similar laws don’t require specific genders.
I had a look further into this, because I wanted to better understand what factors might cause an act to be considered indecent exposure (or outraging public decency). This led me to some guidance on naturism and other non-sexual nudity, from the crown prosecution service.[1] It appears that having an “intention to cause alarm or distress” may be relevant for protests like this — arguably the entire point of the protest is to use the shock value of the nudity as a protest.
That being said, I think it’s a bold move and possibly an effective protest. Even if public indecency laws are gender neutral, it would still be a strong message if any of these women got arrested for this — the reason why these women are capable of causing alarm or distress by going topless is because these are “female presenting nipples” (to use a heavily-memed phrase from the Tumblr porn ban era)
1 ↩︎
It appears that having an “intention to cause alarm or distress” may be relevant for protests like this — arguably the entire point of the protest is to use the shock value of the nudity as a protest.
I was looking at this, too, it looks like public nudity is legal, and I don’t think peaceful protest counts as disorderly conduct. The policing aid cites relevant law & provides a decision aid. It states
Naturists have a right to freedom of expression which only engages criminal law if they commit sexual offences or use disorderly behaviour that they intend to or are aware may be disorderly within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress.
A decision aid clarifies
Decision aid for responding officers
Is there a clear sexual motivation to the subject’s actions?
↓ No
Has the person been ‘disorderly’ and caused another person ‘actual’ harassment, alarm or distress (as opposed to considering the likelihood of this or the complainant finding it personally distasteful or offensive)?
↓ No
It will normally be appropriate to take no further action
Advise complainantPersonally distasteful or offensive doesn’t qualify.
Disorderly conduct seems to mean disruptions that intimidate or prevent people from exercising their lawful rights or accessing goods & services they are legally entitled to. Police can impose restrictions on start & finish times, location, noise levels.
Maybe someone better versed in UK law can clarify.
Yes it would also come under some public order offences. Bottom line is, the legal def of woman wasn’t the reason they didn’t get arrested.
The police in Edinburgh aren’t going to do anything. People get their tits ‘n’ bits out regularly “for art/paganism”
Hmm…
spoiler
Pretty sure it’s just a bug in the federation of images between blahaj.zone and lemmy.world, but it was a funny coincidence.
actually proud of Scotland for once, not the government but the people
It’s the UK supreme court, not a Scottish court, that decided to stomp over all the progress we had made with trans rights.
The Scottish Parliament tends to be considerably more left wing than the UK Parliament. Left to their own devices they would probably be much more like a Scandinavian country.
But actually, yes, the Scottish people are indeed awesome.
Yeah the government was kind of referring to the UK government there, they seem to ruin everything
The Scottish and Irish have been saying that for hundreds of years
I was particularly amused the time they decided to beat up a terrorist.
