People moaning about tankie propaganda are missing the point that it’s not about how amazing China is, it’s about how American politicians are letting their people down.
The “because totalitarianism” argument is a non-starter - plenty of functioning democracies have built effective high speed rail. China is being given as an example because they’re a similar size while having much less money; it’s a counter to the “we’re too big” excuses usually made for why small European and SEA countries are also able to do it.
I am, but the fact that Japan’s is elected is quite an important point for me.
Mind you, I’m still happy with the good that China does do, and their investment in rail is great, but as a government system to follow as an example, there are better options out there.
I don’t think anyone wants to follow their system of government, but that government makes some good decisions that we ought to be able to make too.
And it’s not an excuse that it’s just because we’re not as authoritarian, it’s not like we’re just making good decisions slower. We’re not making them at all or actively making opposite decisions. And even worse we seem to be able to make those opposite decisions all too quickly, with no sound basis, and contrary to what voters want
There’s a stark difference between Chinese propaganda and information about positive things in China.
You can post about good aspects of the Chinese society without mentioning the government, let alone glorifying it. Same goes for the USA. If I post that I like American national parks, does that constitute American propaganda? Are we only allowed to hate on those two countries?
Just because the Chinese model is incompatible with the European or American ones, doesn’t mean there’s nothing we can learn from it.
Actually, yes. Fuck Yellowstone and fuck Yogi the Bear. I’m gonna go ahead and hate everything in the US and everything in China. EU rules, other places drool! Downvote me if and you dare! I’ve got a baguette and I’m not afraid to use it!
Assuming you’re French: why are you defending a colonial empire with literal colonies such as French Guyana, which keeps hundreds of millions of people in Africa empoverished and underdeveloped through tools such as the CFA Franc or its literal army? Do you also defend the murder of over a million Algerians a whopping 15 years later than WW2?
I made a baguette in the usa just a few days ago, the secret to a perfect midwest baguette is corn syrup for the outside texture, brominated vegetable oil to better combine with the flour and water, and habaneros for taste.
This is propaganda though. At least the other post of OP today gets all the facts wrong. That is clearly not meant to start a good discussion on the topic.
Other democratic countries all manage to have perfectly fine rail systems, it’s not solely the domain of totalitarian governments- just functioning governments.
Much like healthcare, it’s literally just the US government that fucks it up.
For those who want to go the “well Europe/Japan/Korea/China/etc had the advantage of being bombed flat in various wars which made rebuilding for rail easier”, we STILL have plenty of unused, unmaintained rail in the US. We could do this. Hell, you wanna solve unemployment numbers going up? Public works to rehab the right-of-ways that the big companies aren’t using, rehab the rails they ARE using, and suddenly we can AT LEAST enable 100mph trains across the country in less than a decade, and probably bring back passenger rail if we wanted to invest in more rolling stock.
Of course, this means we’d have to lift the steel tariff. And rehab steel mills. And also nationalize good portions of the railway (I’d suggest the entire rail network, and lease usage to the freight companies).
A really sad fact is that rail lines used to connect even the most rural of communities. Many cities removed rail lines to put in roadways.
You can still find rails to a lot of farms in Idaho because that’s how produce used to be shipped.
The big rail companies are a major reason rail sucks in the US. They were given the land for their lines nearly for free with the promise they’d provide public transit. Well, they stopped that. So the US created Amtrak to relieve them of the obligation of public transit with the promise that Amtrak trains would get priority. Well they constantly break that law which makes Amtrak suck with constant delays.
Heck, these companies are at least supposed to be in charge of maintaining the lines, and they don’t do that either. The US has a crazy number of derailments and a big reason for some of them is that the tracks receive little maintenance.
These are still multi billion dollar companies and they do what all giant companies do and nickel/dime everything.
It’s actually worse than that- amtrak was a reagan thing, which was meant to intentionally fail so they could give the passenger rail lines to big freight companies as well.
It was literally meant to fail so they could privatize it, but Amtrak pulled off a miracle. Amtrak is actually really, really good in places they can own their own rail- it’s why they’re really not allowed to build or own their own rail anymore.
Yeah but China’s authoritarian system is how they went from no high speed rail to the most high speed rail in the world in just 25 years. It took Japan 70 years to get where they are now and many European nations more than a hundred.
Maybe also having the largest population in the world had something to do with it. They have way more people to do the work. They also have way more money than Japan to do the work.
And that’s not even considering how they have a lot more land to work with. Easier to put high speed rail through some farmland than to redevelop several urban blocks to create rail infrastructure.
Well, the perk of being an authoritarian regime is that you don’t really have to put the high speed rail on farmland. Urban blocks are fine too if it’s a better path.
Don’t know if you read my comment very well. Regardless of the state’s authority it’s still way easier to develop land that’s not densely populated versus that which is.
You mean the places that did the actual research and development on how to effectively build (high speed) trains and rail networks took longer to get where they are than the place that could just use already well-established technology? No way!
Don’t get me wrong, there can absolutely be political barriers to having a good rail network (as evidenced by the US), but let’s not pretend you’re comparing apples to apples here.
All Western countries can do this too, they just only do it for motorways to subsidize the fossil fuel and car industries instead of something which would actually be good for people.
I live in Europe and regularly use rail transport here and love it… But even here we barely maintain what we have, almost never build more, and certainly build far more new roading projects than rail ones.
In Germany for example there were 19km of Autobahn and 56.5km of high speed rail line added in the last five years. Rail is an alternative to large roads. So freeways like the Autobahn network is similar to high speed rail, larger local roads with regional rail and four lane or more roads inside cities are tram or metro lines. However for local roads the alternative is cycling and walking paths and even there you probably want some limited access for things like ambulances, trucks(stores or moving large things), firetrucks and so forth. So everybody is building a lot more roads then rail.
Then let’s have examples from those EU countries, instead of an authoritarian state.
I see all these posts, and can’t help but think of the thousands of tankies constantly spamming exhausting propaganda on lemmy. There are so many great examples from democratic countries, so I’m suspicious if someone picks China.
I live in the EU, and currently standing in a bus stop. I’m all for public transport, fuck cars. But fuck China, too.
If I as a European come around and tell Americans how public transport, healthcare, and city planning are just better here, I get to hear the same crap about “propaganda”.
That, or I hear the all too often repeated “BuT thINgs aRe JuSt diFfeRENt HerE!”
You don’t have to be authoritarian to accomplish these things. Even the US built some truly amazing infrastructure very quickly following WW2. They just chose to make it all car based. It was impressive from an engineering perspective, but not very smart
You say the US is also bad yet you reiterate the state & media’s talking points and propaganda. You’re doing the CIA’s work for free.
allowed to say how much our country sucks
Since the PRC has whole process democracy people are able to criticize the government and policies in a way that can lead to a better progression of socialism. The framework is democratic centralism, or “freedom of discussion, unity of action.” Now criticisms from reactionaries, capitalists, or foreign influences by the CIA, need to be suppressed since they don’t benefit society or improve human development. The PRC does have surveillance, but it mostly aimed at keeping businesses/capital and forces that wish to destabilize it from inside or out checked, here’s an intro to the Social Credit System. Also fun fact the population of China actually has a higher perception of democracy:
far more human rights violations
The PRC is busy building actual democracy as stated above, lifting 700+ million people out of poverty, helping rebuild and develop the Global South, is far ahead in having social rights with free (or way cheaper) healthcare, education, and housing all while leading the world in renewable energy. The imperial core is busy causing endless wars, looting raw materials and resources from “undeveloped” countries, killing millions, bombing countries to hell, sponsoring an actual genocide and apartheid in Palestine, has the largest incarnation and homelessness percentages in the world, drives people into poverty as material conditions get worse, and has the most expensive and backwards healthcare system all while censoring and attacking those who speak against them.
Is China perfect, no, but it is leagues above any country you perceive as a beacon of “freedom.”
Because Americans have been complaining “but America is big” when you try to compare other countries, so an example for a equivalent science should be used. Also another notable thing with China is their development is recent enough to show that it’s never too late to start the change.
Incorrect! You see, there was no example offered by me that China does or does not employ hostile architecture, not even the slightest hint of implication.
Please note that this is not my post and I did not agree that this claim was even accurate, I have zero idea as to the accuracy of that photo, and it doesn’t matter, as both claims and more can all be “propaganda”
It doesn’t need to be your post to answer that question. The reason why they would do that is because this is blatant propoganda, no need to be on the fence about it.
But I answered my own question, it was a rhetorical question.I don’t see how it’s “blatant” over “kinda”; for example, do you consider all Lemmy posts to be propaganda because they are all online? If bored just ignore, I’m not trying to be difficult
I think it’s a sliding scale and maybe even subjective claims either way.
What’s it with these railway based China propaganda posts?
Yes the US sucks.
Yes you can get a lot done in a totalitarian system.
But: China also sucks.
In Fact, China uses the same kind of hostile architecture:
People moaning about tankie propaganda are missing the point that it’s not about how amazing China is, it’s about how American politicians are letting their people down.
The “because totalitarianism” argument is a non-starter - plenty of functioning democracies have built effective high speed rail. China is being given as an example because they’re a similar size while having much less money; it’s a counter to the “we’re too big” excuses usually made for why small European and SEA countries are also able to do it.
I feel like you can make the point without felating dictatorships and making the false statement that they don’t do the same shit.
Yeah. Can we take Japan as an example perhaps? They’ve got excellent high speed rail too. Also better urban planning in general.
You have problems with China but not with Japan’s elected far-right government? Are you a leftist?
I am, but the fact that Japan’s is elected is quite an important point for me.
Mind you, I’m still happy with the good that China does do, and their investment in rail is great, but as a government system to follow as an example, there are better options out there.
I don’t think anyone wants to follow their system of government, but that government makes some good decisions that we ought to be able to make too.
And it’s not an excuse that it’s just because we’re not as authoritarian, it’s not like we’re just making good decisions slower. We’re not making them at all or actively making opposite decisions. And even worse we seem to be able to make those opposite decisions all too quickly, with no sound basis, and contrary to what voters want
There’s a stark difference between Chinese propaganda and information about positive things in China.
You can post about good aspects of the Chinese society without mentioning the government, let alone glorifying it. Same goes for the USA. If I post that I like American national parks, does that constitute American propaganda? Are we only allowed to hate on those two countries?
Just because the Chinese model is incompatible with the European or American ones, doesn’t mean there’s nothing we can learn from it.
Except hostile architecture exists in China, too, so it is actually propaganda…
Actually, yes. Fuck Yellowstone and fuck Yogi the Bear. I’m gonna go ahead and hate everything in the US and everything in China. EU rules, other places drool! Downvote me if and you dare! I’ve got a baguette and I’m not afraid to use it!
Assuming you’re French: why are you defending a colonial empire with literal colonies such as French Guyana, which keeps hundreds of millions of people in Africa empoverished and underdeveloped through tools such as the CFA Franc or its literal army? Do you also defend the murder of over a million Algerians a whopping 15 years later than WW2?
I made a baguette in the usa just a few days ago, the secret to a perfect midwest baguette is corn syrup for the outside texture, brominated vegetable oil to better combine with the flour and water, and habaneros for taste.
His name is Yogi Bear, not Yogi the Bear
Nope. Trump says it’s the Gulf of America so…
Yogi is now Yogi THE Bear
Tit for tat
Also, Lays’ chips are now Walkers crisps
We’re taking this thing over!
This is propaganda though. At least the other post of OP today gets all the facts wrong. That is clearly not meant to start a good discussion on the topic.
Other democratic countries all manage to have perfectly fine rail systems, it’s not solely the domain of totalitarian governments- just functioning governments.
Much like healthcare, it’s literally just the US government that fucks it up.
For those who want to go the “well Europe/Japan/Korea/China/etc had the advantage of being bombed flat in various wars which made rebuilding for rail easier”, we STILL have plenty of unused, unmaintained rail in the US. We could do this. Hell, you wanna solve unemployment numbers going up? Public works to rehab the right-of-ways that the big companies aren’t using, rehab the rails they ARE using, and suddenly we can AT LEAST enable 100mph trains across the country in less than a decade, and probably bring back passenger rail if we wanted to invest in more rolling stock.
Of course, this means we’d have to lift the steel tariff. And rehab steel mills. And also nationalize good portions of the railway (I’d suggest the entire rail network, and lease usage to the freight companies).
A really sad fact is that rail lines used to connect even the most rural of communities. Many cities removed rail lines to put in roadways.
You can still find rails to a lot of farms in Idaho because that’s how produce used to be shipped.
The big rail companies are a major reason rail sucks in the US. They were given the land for their lines nearly for free with the promise they’d provide public transit. Well, they stopped that. So the US created Amtrak to relieve them of the obligation of public transit with the promise that Amtrak trains would get priority. Well they constantly break that law which makes Amtrak suck with constant delays.
Heck, these companies are at least supposed to be in charge of maintaining the lines, and they don’t do that either. The US has a crazy number of derailments and a big reason for some of them is that the tracks receive little maintenance.
These are still multi billion dollar companies and they do what all giant companies do and nickel/dime everything.
It’s actually worse than that- amtrak was a reagan thing, which was meant to intentionally fail so they could give the passenger rail lines to big freight companies as well.
It was literally meant to fail so they could privatize it, but Amtrak pulled off a miracle. Amtrak is actually really, really good in places they can own their own rail- it’s why they’re really not allowed to build or own their own rail anymore.
Yeah but China’s authoritarian system is how they went from no high speed rail to the most high speed rail in the world in just 25 years. It took Japan 70 years to get where they are now and many European nations more than a hundred.
Maybe also having the largest population in the world had something to do with it. They have way more people to do the work. They also have way more money than Japan to do the work.
And that’s not even considering how they have a lot more land to work with. Easier to put high speed rail through some farmland than to redevelop several urban blocks to create rail infrastructure.
Well, the perk of being an authoritarian regime is that you don’t really have to put the high speed rail on farmland. Urban blocks are fine too if it’s a better path.
Don’t know if you read my comment very well. Regardless of the state’s authority it’s still way easier to develop land that’s not densely populated versus that which is.
Japan is significantly more densely populated
Yes of course, but the easiest might not be the best.
You’re not making sense. Easier just explains why they built more. China has several large cities separated by large swaths of rural land.
Japan is a significantly smaller island that is densely populated.
Mile to mile it is simply more laborious for Japan to construct rail
Where’s that picture of the one house in the middle of a highway because the owner wouldn’t sell/move?
You mean the places that did the actual research and development on how to effectively build (high speed) trains and rail networks took longer to get where they are than the place that could just use already well-established technology? No way!
Don’t get me wrong, there can absolutely be political barriers to having a good rail network (as evidenced by the US), but let’s not pretend you’re comparing apples to apples here.
Sure, it’s much easier when you can just take all the land and built right over anything in your way.
All Western countries can do this too, they just only do it for motorways to subsidize the fossil fuel and car industries instead of something which would actually be good for people.
Still have to buy it though. Zoom in on any green part of China on Google maps, and chances are that is owned by the state.
Doo the same in England, and you hit a field that has been owned by the same family for 500 years.
Since when are European countries no longer part of the West?
I live in Europe and regularly use rail transport here and love it… But even here we barely maintain what we have, almost never build more, and certainly build far more new roading projects than rail ones.
In Germany for example there were 19km of Autobahn and 56.5km of high speed rail line added in the last five years. Rail is an alternative to large roads. So freeways like the Autobahn network is similar to high speed rail, larger local roads with regional rail and four lane or more roads inside cities are tram or metro lines. However for local roads the alternative is cycling and walking paths and even there you probably want some limited access for things like ambulances, trucks(stores or moving large things), firetrucks and so forth. So everybody is building a lot more roads then rail.
The US has such a law, look up emminent domain.
they also regularly abuse it for nonsense.
Then let’s have examples from those EU countries, instead of an authoritarian state.
I see all these posts, and can’t help but think of the thousands of tankies constantly spamming exhausting propaganda on lemmy. There are so many great examples from democratic countries, so I’m suspicious if someone picks China.
I live in the EU, and currently standing in a bus stop. I’m all for public transport, fuck cars. But fuck China, too.
Yes
Then why not use those democracies as examples but post basically the same post within 2 hours about china good?
I tell you why: Propaganda
No, because it makes no difference here.
If I as a European come around and tell Americans how public transport, healthcare, and city planning are just better here, I get to hear the same crap about “propaganda”.
That, or I hear the all too often repeated “BuT thINgs aRe JuSt diFfeRENt HerE!”
Cope
How does the USA have immense road infrastructure then?
You don’t have to be authoritarian to accomplish these things. Even the US built some truly amazing infrastructure very quickly following WW2. They just chose to make it all car based. It was impressive from an engineering perspective, but not very smart
All governments are authoritarian its just China is controlled by the working class in service of the working class so better trains get built.
lol
https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China
lol
lol
If you’d like to challenge your bias (which I’d recommend) here’s an overview on the PRC and an article that highlights their whole-process democracy.
But china is bad and so is the US. I know lemmy is tanks as fuck but let’s not treat China the same way Republicans treat the us.
I agree with you that the US is bad (and going further the entire imperial core), but why do you think China is bad?
Because we are allowed to say how much our country sucks and china has far more human rights violations.
You say the US is also bad yet you reiterate the state & media’s talking points and propaganda. You’re doing the CIA’s work for free.
Since the PRC has whole process democracy people are able to criticize the government and policies in a way that can lead to a better progression of socialism. The framework is democratic centralism, or “freedom of discussion, unity of action.” Now criticisms from reactionaries, capitalists, or foreign influences by the CIA, need to be suppressed since they don’t benefit society or improve human development. The PRC does have surveillance, but it mostly aimed at keeping businesses/capital and forces that wish to destabilize it from inside or out checked, here’s an intro to the Social Credit System. Also fun fact the population of China actually has a higher perception of democracy:
The PRC is busy building actual democracy as stated above, lifting 700+ million people out of poverty, helping rebuild and develop the Global South, is far ahead in having social rights with free (or way cheaper) healthcare, education, and housing all while leading the world in renewable energy. The imperial core is busy causing endless wars, looting raw materials and resources from “undeveloped” countries, killing millions, bombing countries to hell, sponsoring an actual genocide and apartheid in Palestine, has the largest incarnation and homelessness percentages in the world, drives people into poverty as material conditions get worse, and has the most expensive and backwards healthcare system all while censoring and attacking those who speak against them.
Is China perfect, no, but it is leagues above any country you perceive as a beacon of “freedom.”
Holy shit dude. Your patronizing tone is sooooo hot. You just might convince me to hop off this Trotsky dick.
And your first comment wasn’t patronizing? Trotsky dick can’t be that good, just ask Frida.
You can down vote them all you want but thats what China and their only political party base nearly all policy decisions on.
Would be nice if America would refocus on the working class rather than billionaires.
Tankie you for your opinion!
You aimed to be derogatory, but you missed.
Right? There are other examples.
Because Americans have been complaining “but America is big” when you try to compare other countries, so an example for a equivalent science should be used. Also another notable thing with China is their development is recent enough to show that it’s never too late to start the change.
Saying something good about a country = Propaganda (???)
Propaganda doesn’t mean false, it’s used to manipulate public opinion whether true or false.
So, was this used to manipulate public opinion? I dunno, kinda
This example is also false because China also employs hostile architecture. Hell, they manufacture the stuff for the US.
Incorrect! You see, there was no example offered by me that China does or does not employ hostile architecture, not even the slightest hint of implication.
Why bring up a bad thing thats true for both countries and leave one of them out?
Guangzhou, China
Please note that this is not my post and I did not agree that this claim was even accurate, I have zero idea as to the accuracy of that photo, and it doesn’t matter, as both claims and more can all be “propaganda”
It doesn’t need to be your post to answer that question. The reason why they would do that is because this is blatant propoganda, no need to be on the fence about it.
But I answered my own question, it was a rhetorical question.I don’t see how it’s “blatant” over “kinda”; for example, do you consider all Lemmy posts to be propaganda because they are all online? If bored just ignore, I’m not trying to be difficult
I think it’s a sliding scale and maybe even subjective claims either way.
If it’ll manipulate public opinion into demanding good public transport then great.