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What?! Fashion-Lizard and his Sidekick Dr.Twink are Woke?! I can’t believe it!
Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
“‘No need for/Evolved past the need for money’ … yeah, wtf, lets just completely ignore that ever-present bit, it’s too scary & perverted to comprehend.”
- avg capitalists Trekkie (or “Trekkie”)Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
Great point!
Wait until people finally get the epiphany that Star Trek is advocating for a world government. And how many here, including outside the Internet, would actually like that?
Precisely.
IIRC, a world government is a prerequisite for joining the Federation isn’t it?
I don’t know. I might like that? It depends a lot on how it is implemented and who is in charge. 😅
I like scifi. I like to explore the strange and push past the walls of reality. I like dangerous visions. Big ideas.
But interpersonal drama, identity-stroking and, yes, politics. It’s just weak and boring. It’s small. Damn small.
Do you see the difference?
Sometimes startrek goes big. Sometimes it doesn’t.
Sci-fi is at its best when it recontextualizes an idea in a way that makes us consider it from a different perspective.
Battlestar Galactica did an awesome job of turning the issues around entirely. Famously, it essentially turned the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan on their heads in Season 3, and you had the good guys building IEDs and employing suicide bombers to kill collaborators.
But my favorite one was when they came up with a situation in which outlawing abortion was necessary, and the political opposition used it as an opportunity to manufacture outrage and steal an election even though they didn’t actually care about the issue at all.
politics is all-encompassing, it can be as big or as small as anything else
I liked Trek before Alex Kurzman stuck his filthy fingers in it and made entire franchise a steaming pile of dog shit.
Oh, OG Trek was woke AF, but it wasn’t done as ham-handed and hackey as what is happening now. It used to feed open-mindedness into everyone’s living room and was generally welcome to do so. What we have now is just slapping you in the face with its floppy cock of wokeness every chance it gets. There is now almost no actual plot other than that. Doctor Who is doing the exact same thing. Can nothing of my childhood just be left the fuck alone? I mean, yeah, represent the marginalized. Make female heroes, or transgender, or whatever and whoever you feel needs to be represented or empowered. Do all of that, but do you have to rewrite absolutely everything ever written to do it? Have an original thought. Honestly, at this point, it is just lazy writing masquerading as woke.
but it wasn’t done as ham-handed and hackey as what is happening now.
I think this comment really nails what’s irking me amount newer Trek. It used to be a show that was written in a way that regardless of your politics, anyone could watch, and it would make you think. It was a show that would sneakily slip in progressive ideas that could make you second guess your perspectives on the world.
Now there is no depth to it, it just slaps you in the face with politics.
This is probably gonna be a hot take, but I think Star Trek should be written in a way that is appealing for conservatives to watch, but regularly slips in metaphors which challenges their world view. Trek was at it’s best when on it’s surface it was a fun adventure show, and the politics was on a deeper level.
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I think this is generally what I hear when it comes to “woke” media. I always chalk it up to media having no clue on how normal humans function in a society.
Explain more about how your childhood is ruined by political messaging in checks notes
Modern Doctor Who and Star Trek. The best written and acted shows of all time, obviously.
it’s done plainly in reference to real life now, as opposed to being integrated seamlessly into the show. a good example would be the episode where the doctor had to erase his mind and Martha (a black woman) had to try and protect him while posing as his servant because it was the 1800s when they were stranded. this was still in real history (aliens aside) but was integrated as part of the plotline and not randomly mentioned with no context. a good example of when they get this wrong is the special with the meep where Donna’s daughter says something along the lines of “I’m nonbinary because the doctor-donna is binary” which doesn’t make sense in the story because the doctor-donna is binary due to Donna literally merging with the doctor, not gender identity. these things can be integrated well and when you do they only enhance the story by making it feel more realistic, but you have to make them fit the story, not the other way round.
“I’m nonbinary because the doctor-donna is binary”
My eyes rolled all the way to the back of my head when i saw this bit
I get what they were trying to do but it was such a cop out instead of writing an actual explanation.
That, or:
Your brain wasn’t fully developed because you were a child.
I rewatched the whole show just a couple months ago and I didn’t watch TV much as a kid so I only saw a handful of episodes then. this is my current, up to date opinion.
I never understood that complaint about Star Trek. The series has ALWAYS been woke since the beginning.
Kinda like people complaining Rage Against the Machine becoming political.
Always has been.True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”. It made you think about it, and the story was way waay better and deeper than today’s pew-pew starwars approach to star trek. Every episode had a meaning and a lession.
Yeah the problem isn’t the ideals being in there but how bad the story is makes the ideals seem like a cheap crutch.
Compare Brokeback Mountain to Ben and Arthur. Both movies about the relationship between gay men and society. Both say gay people should be treated fairly by socity but aren’t. The first does it in interesting way with great storytelling and ideas. The later is a hamfisted mess.
I’m not going to say modern Trek is Ben and Arthur bad but it is much closer to Ben and Arthur writing then it is to Brokeback Mountain.
True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”.
they did the first US interracial kiss during a time that would be controversial.
it was “in your face”
It was much better integrated into the story. The problem isn’t the message, it’s the writing.
No mebtion of space communism? The federation is Marxist
The Federation is not Marxist, communist, or socialist. These economic systems rely on a monetary framework where scarcity dictates value. In the Star Trek universe, scarcity has been eliminated on Earth. There is no energy crisis, no poverty, and no starvation. Transportation is instantaneous, and every individual’s basic needs are met. With no financial struggle, humanity is no longer constrained by the pursuit of wealth. The Federation is not built on enforced equality but on a shared enlightenment. With abundant resources, every person enjoys a high standard of living.
What? No. Marxism notes that scarcity wouldn’t be a thing with increasing industrialization. Indeed, it isn’t; we have plenty of resources to put a roof over everyone’s head and food in their belly. The base of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs can be completely covered, and the rest are not necessarily best fulfilled by mere material possessions. We could have the whole thing done in a year if society simply made the choice.
Now, I don’t think the Federation is Marxist, because we actually know very little about how the economy works at all. There’s contradictory information, it might depend on what time period or planet you’re talking about, and the writers have generally been uninterested in exploring the economy beyond superficial mentions.
No. You’re just wrong and in every aspect.
Please refer to my responses further down in this thread.
When you are in post scarcity and everyone has everything they need and everyone works together ina government for mutual benefit that’s Marxist communism.
No it’s not. (I have to be honest with you. You clearly have no clue what Marxism or communism is and yet you make a declarative statement that holds no water at all; why?)
While the Star Trek universe presents a post-scarcity society where money is largely obsolete and resources are distributed based on need, it diverges significantly from Karl Marx’s vision of communism. Marxist communism is fundamentally rooted in class struggle, revolution, and the eventual withering away of the state. The Star Trek Federation, however, remains highly structured, hierarchical, and governed by an institutionalized bureaucracy, notably Starfleet.
Moreover, technological advancements such as replicators eliminate material scarcity, a condition Marx never accounted for in his theories. Instead of a classless, stateless society emerging from historical struggle, Star Trek depicts a future where economic necessity is bypassed through technology, and individuals contribute based on personal fulfillment rather than class-driven labor dynamics.
a future where economic necessity is bypassed through technology, and individuals contribute based on personal fulfillment rather than class-driven labor dynamics.
Yeah, however not all higher Maslows can be replicated, so obviously a fair bit of (popular or bureaucratic) meritocracy is incorporated into the redistribution and/or accesses to finite resources.
(But the main point is that if individuals have the option to pursue personal fulfilment that is a huge net plus for the society & everyone can get more out of their life & life within that society - imagine only having people in the food industry that fully enjoy the work or the huge selection of artists not pre-smothered by the daily grind for basic human needs.)
As you said, much data is missing, but I assume if I wanted a nicer office or an apparent with a better view I could get to it via contributing something of merit to society (eg a successful career, notable art contributions, maybe some hero stuff, etc).
How come the Picard real estates remained in the family though all those generations, I can’t fully explain. Tho there basically was a revolution (a world war, but same diff) that facilitated initial systematic changes (I assume a much decimated/irrelevant previously-elite class).
How come the Picard real estates remained in the family though all those generations, I can’t fully explain.
Doyalist answer: the writers laid out shipboard EPS conduits more thoughtfully than the Federation economy.
Marx never considered replicators much like he never considered sorcery as an option because he worked within the framework of the reality of his time. He was engaging in practical philosophy not fantasy which is why you see the focus on a class struggle as in his time.
The federation has no money and everyone has what they need according to their needs how isn’t that Marx’ ideal? If you could achieve socialism without revolution IRL he would have backed that but in reality you cannot hope for the privileged to give up their power.
I don’t think you should be declaring your assessments of people’s understanding if things given you are factually incorrect in this case and you are not in any way telepathic.
Well
End-game socialist
I mean Sisko kind of does when he describes how the Bell riots have to take place before we unite as a planet and join the Federation
It reminds me of those people that claim The X-Men have gotten “woke” even though that’s been the whole point of the comic since the 60’s or worse yet those poor souls out there who thought Rage Against the Machine was getting too political lol
Reminds me of a YouTube comment under the video where they got cut of during a bbc live take for singing “fuck” after the production team brieft them to not sing fuck: “What machine they thought they rage against? The printer?”
“Please, if you find one of our songs that isn’t political, please show it to me so I can verify and have it removed.” - Tom Morello
There’s a lot in renegades
I wonder what these people think “the machine” means 😭
the printer obvs
Fuck you, I won’t print what you tell me
Low on cyan
If first interracial kiss on TV is Woke then I don’t wanna be anything but.
Don’t forget The Measure of a Man. We literally watched that in 9th grade American History, as a commentary about slavery.
Trek on gender: “Don’t care, will smash” – Kirk & Ryker
PS: Memba when Ryker was captured by a pre-First Contact civ and he had to bribe a nurse with an alien kink with sex in order to escape? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
*“Will smash, won’t even think about care”
And even when Wesley momma didn’t want to smooch with the nice parasitic lady it was respectfully addressed.
(How or why was all that kept quiet in the first place just remained a barely plastered-over plot hole.)The soul is willing but the flesh is spongey and bruised!
I remember that being a little more “coercive and rapey” than bribing, since the nurse was the one who demanded “fuck me and I’ll set you free, or you can wait for whatever they are going to do to you.”
I get Riker is full of fucks to give, but he didn’t seem terribly pleased with not having a choice.
I always took his reluctance being about the report he was going to have to make about the incident.
True
Of course I to, I fucking love that episode. I think the Nurse was Lilith from Frasier and the aunt from Jumanji? Questionable consent vibes aside that episode is hilarious and amazing
My favorite detail of the TNG episode “The Outcast” is that the writers were pushing for an episode that touched on sexuality but Rick Berman wouldn’t go for it. So the writers gave a figurative “fuck you” and wrote an episode on gender identity instead.
And while Berman was occupied holding TNG back the DS9 writers had enough freedom to use the Dax symbiote’s multiple lifetimes to explore sexuality instead.
The DS9 writers would sometimes write a script that they knew would be approved and then give the actors “suggested improvised lines” for what they actually wanted.
Does anyone else remember that TNG had a recurring background character who was just a regular crewman but he always wore a Star Fleet dress or skirt that would just walk around in the background of scenes? He may have had heels as well, I can’t remember. Regardless I always thought it was neat that they never made a big deal out of it or a joke
Its a type of uniform called a Skant. It was TNG trying to make the TOS miniskirts unisex. It only lasted a couple seasons I think, but it’s gotten a couple callbacks on Lower Decks.
I don’t know about woke but I liked Trek before it got boring and poorly written -_-
That’s basically all it is: Media getting “too big to fail” and then neutering its writing quality by committee. It tries to tell socially progressive stories at the same time, so people associate the two.
A streamer pointed out the cognitive dissonance people have, when “anti-woke” people played Baldur’s Gate 3. It was gender expressive and diverse…but it was also GOOD writing. So they decided it was”wasn’t woke”.
We have The Orville today for good Trek
I really tried to like that show but it’s just … Bad. To each their own but I’d rather just rewatch TNG or whatever other Star Trek. That show feels like it doesn’t have an identity, the writers couldn’t decide what kind of show they were writing and the acting is subpar.
Of course, if you enjoy it that’s all that really matters - keep on watching and having fun!
How far did you make it? Season 1 is a bit painful, Season 2 is better but Season 3 is a big shift.
Seth McFarland’s humor is not very good…
Season 3 was a surprise. They just played it straight. Went from parody to homage.
Not very far lol, a couple episodes to give it a fair shake though, do you have an episode recommendation?
Just echoing here that it does take awhile to get going.
Honestly, despite what I’m about to say below, I probably wouldn’t recommend it now (just on signal to noise ratio) if not for https://thecinemaholic.com/the-orville-season-4/ giving hope for more story, or unless you happened to be a superfan of Seth McFarlane.
My .02 -
Season 1 -
First reaction - wow this DOES feel like TNG.
Second reaction - WAY too much Family-Guy style humor.
I like humor in my scifi, and I like Family-Guy style humor (during its heyday anyhow). Season 1 episode 7 almost made me turn it off. No one trying to pay homage to trek should be writing in something like this as a first contact “mistake”. IMO in S1 we learned that Family-Guy style humor doesn’t always work in live action.
Season 2 - Better, but still trying to find the right blend. It’s been awhile now, but I think S2 got better and better over time and had some pretty good eps.
Season 3 - Really great, hit their stride, perfect blend of humor and drama, super disappointed when it was cancelled.
Season 4 - See link above. If they can recapture S3 vibes I’m excited for it, but I’m not 100% confident they will. Fingers crossed.
With all that said, if you are considering it at all, I’d just watch it all. That way you get the evolution of the show, the running gags, and don’t miss any significant bits that are sprinkled through, and you know all the road that has been traveled when they get to S4. It’s only three seasons and it’s not a long show. Yes, some of it is cringe, but so was some of the early seasons of TNG.
Season 1 episode 10
If you don’t like it I don’t think you will care for the rest
Season 2 Episode 8-9 is a two part episode that is good but I wouldn’t recommend jumping into it because it’s not as good if you don’t care about the characters
Can’t stomach McFarlane unfortunately. I’m told it gets better later on but his sense of humor is just like nails on a chalkboard to me. Couldn’t get myself to finish the first season.
My partner and I have a theory that MacFarlane pitched The Orville as “Family Guy in space,” and he got to make it because of his success with Family Guy. But the actual goal he had all along was to make Star Trek.
In order to keep the game up and get a second season, he had to sell the pitch at least a bit. So the early episodes are like Star Trek with cringey Family Guy-esque jokes. But as the series goes on, the cringe stops, the jokes slow down, and the plots get deeper.
I can’t stand cringe humor and did not consider myself a fan of MacFarlane, but The Orville changed that.
Exactly. Orville is more “woke” and i absolutely love it. It’s supposed to be just a sort of comedy parody of star trek, yet it has more depth than the Discovery has.
That’s fair, the cartoon is apparently not bad, just not my cup of tea.
Lower Decks is my favorite Star Trek since DS9. When it came out though, I was super against it. Didn’t think Paramount had any right to be making fun of Star Trek after Discovery season 1. You can tell Lower Decks is made by people that love Star Trek though.
This last season, they did a classic Audience-with-the-Klingon-High-Council episode, and when I saw it, I exclaimed to my fiance, “Yes! I love Klingon bureaucracy episodes!” and then later in the episode, there was almost that exact same line
Strange New Worlds has been finding their feet too. We got a courtroom episode on Augment rights, that really felt Star Trek, and they’ve had some original stories as well that I’ve really loved, like Among the Lotus Eaters. There have been a couple episodes I haven’t been a fan of, but what Star Trek hasn’t had those?
If you’re open to it, I recommend giving both shows another chance!
Lower Decks and SNW are FANTASTIC and some of the best Trek in a very long time. Almost as good as The Orville ;)
Yeah it’s good and agreed that discovery is pure ass so It’s definitely a little bit of both
True. We don’t have masterpieces like “Spock’s Brain” anymore. /S
Say what you want about TOS, it’s campy and silly but it’s not boring.
Even Platos Stepchildren, which everyone remembers for the first interracial kiss, was a pretty fucking terrible episode.
Yes, but that’s a reasonable take, so it gets drowned out.
