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I see a lot of objectionable behavior out in public. A lot of it is from children. But most of it is not. If I’m thinking through my 10 worst flight experiences, or subway experiences, or coffee shop experiences, none of them involve children. Children are mostly a mild annoyance (and I say this as someone who mostly doesn’t like other people’s kids), but mostly harmless.
So the reaction of singling out the children for immediate correction, through physical force and violence, seems to be selectively targeted, and makes me suspect it’s just people who just don’t like children. Unless these same people say that a person holding up the line, playing music too loud on the subway, getting too close in your personal space, throwing trash on the ground, catcalling women, using slurs in public, etc., all deserve to be beaten, too.
And for people in the thread who are saying stuff like “oh yeah you shouldn’t beat your kids, but you should keep those children out of public places,” it also calls to mind the way some people talk about the homeless or the disabled, like they’re ruining your good time by simply existing within your vicinity.
We’re all just trying to coexist. Being in public, in a place open and accessible to everyone else, is inherently going to involve compromise, where we’re not able to exclude others (the deal that comes with them not being able to exclude you). You can’t let other people aggravate you enough to, like, post a TikTok about it (which I also consider to be objectionable behavior).
My 11-month old is an absolute saint when we’re out and about, then a horrifying tornado of destruction when he’s at home. I suspect a lot of it is just boredom, but its hard to tell because… 11-mo olds aren’t great at verbalizing their discontent.
As he gets older and he starts losing that starstruck look of wonderment at the mall or a new restaurant or wherever, I suspect he’ll be harder to control. But he’s also incredibly clever, athletic, and curious. I don’t want to discourage any of this just to make parenting a bit easier in the short term.
Can’t fucking imagine actually hitting him. I know what that did to me after the rare few times my mom did it. I still can’t bring myself to forgive her 30 years later. And there’s no way I want my son thinking of me that way.
When I was a kid, my parents used to leave me at home with my brother and he would be abusive af. He tied me up ones with zipties. One time, I felt so scared of my brother, I had to run away from home. I’m so used to all this, every time I hear my mother’s voice, I feel terrified, its like PTSD-inducing.
Then my mother gets [suprisedpikachuface.jpg] when I have depression. What did you expect, bitch, you caused this.
My mom had 4 kids. 3 of us were well behaved in public and she said “I would look at those parents with screaming kids in the store and think I am doing something right, my kids don’t do that. So God gave me Janet. I was so judgemental, then I got one who screamed in the store.”
no body is stopping you now
It’s pretty hard being a dad and wanting to not hit my kids (which I do not) because I know damn well when they’re throwing shit and having an absolute exorcist level tantrum over some inconsequential shit I just think “yeah my mum would have smacked my ass and I’d not have done that again” for the eighth time each day…
“Calm it down or you’ll lose your tablet time” doesn’t have the same immediate corrective effect.
I don’t mind rambunctious children, as long as they aren’t hurting anyone, doing ear piercing screaming, or doing something that spreads disease. (Like putting their hands directly into ice cream topping trays instead of using the fucking scoop)
Frequently I see parents be way overly harsh with their kids where I’m at like the parent is terrified of being seen as a bad/lazy parent so they take it out on their kid by way over reacting to a kid doing something disruptive but ultimately pretty harmless.
There are occasional situations where the parent just dumbly stands there doing nothing to stop their kid doing something they really shouldn’t (like that Ice Cream Topping example… which is a thing I recently witnessed). But that’s less common than the former. Might be because I live in a rural conservative hellhole where kids are seen as their parent’s property.
My kids are respectful but they’re kids and I have an autistic 4 year old who is so cute and cuddly but he has the energy of a thousand suns, one time he was skipping around, hopping over cracks in the sidewalk and being happy and laughing loud, we go to a store and hes asking me a million questions and laughing and talking loud while being energetic and hopping. this one old Karen tells me I need to keep him quieter and calm, because he is disturbing others by laughing and being a kid. Without skipping a beat i said “well good thing hes a kid, the world belongs to the kids, not miserable Old people who are gonna die any day now” She had that look that if she were wearing a monocle it would have popped out.
I’m definitely the kind of adult who applies a disproportionately large punishment for small public disruptive behavior from kids I’m watching. It sucks because I know I’m going to far but I’m also so scared of the other adults in the room that I don’t know how else to react. It sucks.
What exactly are you afraid of them doing?
It’s crazy seeing kids being kids. In the 90’s abuse was legal and used, daily. I guess the trade off is life expectancy since we didn’t dodge bullets on the daily.
In 1990 violent crime was twice what it is now. It dropped heavily from 91’ until 99’.
We just think it is more dangerous now because we can see it every time we reach in our pockets. (And companies make money off making sure we see it.)
I would say school shootings are higher now than any point in U.S. history. Child abuse is always an issue but kids today are more protected than in the 90s.
Yeah I would say they have been abnormally high since 2016, with 2020 being an oddity (COVID).
Murders overall are half what they were in 1990. Meaning we have a lot more targeted attacks for various reasons I’m not going to speculate in because my bias would likely impact what I think reasonings may be.
Yeah, it is safer now then ever before overall. I live in Sacramento. Very big place area wise but 20 years ago… It was dangerous with almost half the population size.
New York in the early 90s was cool but you never went down any alleys. I don’t care what it was. If it rolls down the alley it is the lords then.
ITT people taking issue with parenting methods not even being advocated for. If you take your children to public places, of course everyone knows they are children, but they still shouldn’t be pulling stuff off racks, running around screaming and licking the windows, or putting hands on other people or children.
You don’t have to yell at them or beat them or anything else, but if they can’t pull themselves together in public then work on it and consider not bringing them to such places. My mom made us all repeat the rules before we left the car (no running, no putting things in the cart without being asked, keep one hand on the cart while we are moving or something like those) and if we didn’t follow the rules we all went back to the car. Simple as that.
Edit: sometimes you gotta go do something and take the kids. If they’re acting feral at least maybe don’t be the parent who looks like they are totally cool with it and just pretend it isn’t happening?
My mom made us all repeat the rules before we left the car (no running, no putting things in the cart without being asked, keep one hand on the cart while we are moving or something like those)
Wow, I’d forgotten this till just now - my mother did the same. Thanks for the memory jog!
I can remember being 2 or 3 years old and the golden rule then was to always be holding someone’s hand - parent/sibling, etc.
There is essentially universal agreement in the field of child psychology that “beating” your child is the wrong approach.
I’ve yet to meet a parent that completely ignores their child in a public venue. In many cultures children are considered to be a part of society / community and so they are given some autonomy to discover the world with their peers. Hyper individualistic Western society is really the odd one out here and Western cultures are the only ones where I’ve seen this take expressed openly. Conclude from that what you will.
A few weeks ago my wife and I were getting breakfast at a local bakery. Inside, a dad had decided that it did not matter that his small child was running around, screaming at the top of his lungs. The little gremlin started trying to steal pastries off other people’s tables and dad stiff didn’t do anything until the staff announced loudly that all unattended children would be reported to CPS.
That kid didn’t need a beating, but that dad sure did.
Agreed, that’s unacceptable.
Look, with parents you never know what they just went through. Maybe they didn’t get any sleep or whatever. A different approach would have been for someone to start playing with the kid
If you’re a parent, you are the problem. It’s not strangers’ jobs to parent your kids. If you can’t keep them from bothering other people do not take them to places with other people. It’s not socially acceptable for me to kick your kid, so don’t put me in a position where that starts seeming like a good idea.
If you can’t keep them from bothering other people do not take them to places with other people.
Kids will always bother those around them. They cry, they can’t understand or follow social cues etc. But they’re people and imo they have the right to exist in public places.
In Berlin neighbors sue schools all the time for noise pollution, for being too noisy. Like wtf
Although I agree with the sentiment, I would NEVER expect anybody to entertain my kids. I would just pack them up and gone home. My kids are my burden to bear.
I would NEVER expect anybody to entertain my kids.
I wouldn’t either but I’m not in this persons shoes
That does happen in other more child friendly cultures. Its just not a priority in Western culture. Children are very much seen as an impediment to productivity rather than an investment in the future. Its a consequence of capitalistic and individualistic ideals, for better or for worse.
I personally resonate with the song Eat Your Young by Hozier. It’s an indictment on all modern culture but I feel Western culture especially. The overall message being that (in my interpretation) when we focus on productivity instead of sustainability we sell out future generations.
Very simple: Don’t have children, and the population will collapse until people have time to parent again.
That’s not how that works. Also people never had time to parent. They probably have more time now. Older generations were just sent out on the streets to play in the morning or after school and had to be back for dinner.
Both my parents and me are working, we still can’t get a net positive out in a month. My brother is basically neglected
That’s fucked. How many square meters of living space do you 4 have? You’re in the US I assume? Since basically everywhere else you would be better off
Serbia actually. Please nuke us, we have oil.
I have many times seen parents ignoring their child’s behaviour in public, pretty much every time I go shopping.
That’s incredible, there may be some regional variation at play here.
I mostly agree except for the initial phase of teaching a kid to listen and control themselves. The part of the brain that forces them to sit still and focus doesn’t really develop imo without some fear. I wouldn’t at all advocate for beating your child, but when they are young a little spank sometimes that isn’t that bad seems scary as hell to them. It’s very effective to get them to learn to listen, to stop running around, that sort of thing. After you get past that point you can talk to them, it’s much easier. Also you have to talk to them afterwards so they know you aren’t being mean, but need them to learn to control themselves and not let their emotions take over all the time. If you do it well, you won’t have to do it but a few times. Not intensity, but as little as possible, just so they know that they can’t get away with it. A kid has almost unlimited energy to fight and yell. It’s not good for you, and it’s not good for them. It’s not really normal for an animal to never have any fear. The brain isn’t supposed to work that way. Yet also it’s not good to abuse them obviously. Some people are kind of bad parents and they will use that as an excuse to avoid doing what they should for their kids, like cooking healthy food and stuff. When kids arent eating well or are trapped inside all day they also get restless. That is not the time to be spanking. The one time where spanking is appropriate is simply to make them realize that they can’t just ignore you and walk on you, and that they have to actually talk with you when you are serious. Talking is the part where they learn. They should just learn fear. This will make them depressive and lazy and resentful and psychotic.
This is an area with a ton of debate and I appreciate your insights. I was on the receiving end of corporal punishment growing up and have chosen not continue that cycle. That doesn’t mean that my child will grow up without consequences, which is I think what most posters are frustrated with here.
According to the World Health Organization:
Evidence shows corporal punishment harms children’s physical and mental health, increases behavioural problems over time, and has no positive outcomes.
All corporal punishment, however mild or light, carries an inbuilt risk of escalation. Studies suggest that parents who used corporal punishment are at heightened risk of perpetrating severe maltreatment
Corporal punishment is linked to a range of negative outcomes for children across countries and cultures, including physical and mental ill-health, impaired cognitive and socio-emotional development, poor educational outcomes, increased aggression and perpetration of violence.
There is also evidence that fear based parenting can lead to anxiety, depression, behavioral problems, and poor self-esteem and sows mistrust and emotional distance between parent and child. I can personally attest to experiencing quite a few of these in relation to corporal punishment.
Now it sounds like you are using fear judiciously and to each their own. But I am determined to find another way, while also making consequences as clear as possible. Age 1 to 3 is difficult for everyone since the child is mobile and exploratory but has very little reasoning capabilities.
I am similar, I grew up with a great deal of that and I barely ever use it for my kids. I actually have a fair bit of trauma and PTSD because my father was an alcoholic and very mean. I never use it anymore I did a little when they were toddlers to get them to do stuff like not pee in the bed, to not leave trash laying around, to not be disrespectful. I had a severe concussion when I was raising them in that phase and I couldn’t handle the yelling because it would trigger massive migraines. I understand most people who use it do ruin their kids with it, and most people who use it are really trashy parents who are arrogant and have bad morality, but really the point in trying to make is that it’s very healthy for a kid to learn how to deal with the emotion of fear and to experience it a bit. This is something the modern world doesn’t realize as much. It helps them to focus. It’s a very narrow window of course. Fear is a strong work and don’t want you to think that I mean your kid should be terrified of you, but they should learn to have respect to feel a bit of consequences to get past that basic part where their higher mind can take control. Their fear needs to be able to calm their mind. I think of it as two pillars that lean against each other creating an arch, your positive and negative emotions. That is a really complicated way of saying, the only thing spanking is good for, is to teach a kid to stop, think, and listen, anything beyond that is abuse imo. You really need to talk to them and explain, not just preach, but back and forth about why something is right or wrong. Tell them about your life and what you have to deal with. Ask them what they think. Ask them how they feel about it. Let them be honest, let them have autonomy where you can. Being safe and respectful is important but beyond that you don’t own your child and your child doesn’t need to be molded by you as a parent. They need to bloom into their own type of flower. That is what actually makes them a highly motivated person.
It works good for me because I completely support my kids autonomy. I want them to have their own style, their own desires, their own preferences, I want them to be themselves. I don’t police their sexuality or what video games or movies they can watch. What clothes they can buy. I do forbid them from some things of course. Hanging out with people who do drugs is one example. I will talk to them about these things in an adult fashion. I will challenge them and ask them questions about why they are doing something, and ask them to tell me how it makes people around them feel, how it makes them feel. It’s not that they should live their life to please other people, not at all, but to be aware of how their actions affect others. To be aware of other people’s pain and limitations. Talk is best, a respectful adult conversation as equals. A conversation as a friend.
You never want to use physical punishment anymore then you have to, because your child will come to see the world through the lens of a victim. They will never really develop an ability to take pride in themselves and stand up for themselves and to chase their own dreams. Survival becomes their only true friend when they learn to hide themselves from the world.
I’d like to thank you again for your insights. It sounds like you exercise a lot of self control and have thought about this meticulously which unfortunately many parents do not. I agree that theres value in children experiencing and understanding fear in a controlled environment.
Ultimately I do want them to experience and better understand fear though I certainly don’t want them to fear me. I’m still hoping I can impart those lessons without threatening their bodily autonomy since it is personally a hard line for me (just from personal experiences and the psychological issues it caused). But time will tell, mine have yet to enter the stage of chaos and irrationality known as toddlerhood haha.
Fair enough, you sound like a good one anyways. Best of luck
I don’t hit my kids, I barely even yell. They’re the most well-behaved kids I know. Almost as though respecting your kids and spending time with them makes them happier? And maybe kids that feel respected act better? It’s a parenting problem. Youth are the future, we the parents decide what that future looks like.
It’s boundaries, expectations and consistancy in consequences if they break the rules.
Yes, teaching kids to behave is far more effective than beating them into compliance. Sure, they have difficulty grasping it in their early years, but with repetition it eventually sinks in like all of the other things we teach them.
All I want is enough differentiated “adult only” spaces. I won’t say anyone how to raise their kids, just let me be in a space where that parenting is not happening.
Lol, “space where that parenting is not happening” is kinda everywhere!
(Sorry, just read that differently at first, thought it was a humorous take).
I swear, Americans are obsessed with the idea that kids need a beating once in a while. That would get you arrested where I am from.
Not just Americans, corporal punishment is still acceptable in mainland China. I remember a teacher used a meter ruler and slapped a kid on the palm of their hands (it was a light slap, but still unacceptable in my opinion), I remember being so scared of it, not sure if I ever got slapped, but if I did, it probably became a suppressed memory since I can’t recall it. Parents can beat their kids in public and cops probably wouldn’t really do anything since its family matters. Fucking “Filial Piety” bs and all. I didn’t get “beaten” but I did get hit when I was younger, and it only stopped because I got too old and I could fight back, and also because we immigrated to the US where it’s less tolerated. Skill scolded me every chance she got. My brother also yells at me. Its chaos. Happens at least once a week.
I doubt my depression and anxiety issues will ever be solved.
My dad was occasionally beaten by his mom and dad in the 1950s and 60s, but his generation decided it was over with, and it also became illegal in the 90s. We’re in Denmark.
Cultural change can and will happen, you’ll be the agent of that when you’re older 😘 I believe in you!
I mean, I am not perfect, I also sometimes yell at my kids, but I also say sorry a lot, so… We’re only human.
I think people are jumping to the beating part but ignoring the rest. The thought process usually goes like “wow, my parents would’ve spanked me for doing that… but they’re not doing anything!”
It’s not about the beating. It’s about the kid being allowed to do whatever without any action from the parent. Because that’s usually how it goes when a kid is being a nuisance.
I need to move there. We have never spanked our kids and they behave no worse than any other kids, and better than many.
Louis C.K. may be a bit of a creep, but one thing he said really resonates with me. Children are the only people we’re legally allowed to hit (in the U.S.). They are some of our most vulnerable people and we hit them. They rely on us to protect them, and we hit them. Fuck us for hitting our tiny, vulnerable babies. My wife wasn’t totally opposed to spanking before we had kids, but then we had kids and she can’t imagine hitting them. She’s a wonderful human.
Lots of people have procreated that really shouldn’t have, unfortunately.
People say that having kids it’s hard. It’s not. It’s literally the easiest thing we can do. Even the most stupid people on the planet can, and do, have kids.
And everyone else is the asshole for wanting you to control your petulant, loud, germy, and annoying little bundle of joy.
Yes because the most stupid people are people. They should have kids if they want.
[Someone’s kid yells]
The internet: “You should be sterile.”
This but unironically. 😌
Why do we need to have kids? Why do we need to exist? Give a license to a few top 0.0001% high IQ people, everyone else should be sterilized.
Welcome to the Fitness Test! May the odds be ever in your favor.
powered by Grok™
No need to test me though, I’m sure as heck not touching another human being.
