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i honestly don’t care, i am celebrating either way.
the pure glee I felt when I saw what happened is a tad worrisome but ultimately it feels like it’s a +1 for humanity
Is there anything that is actually conclusive about what his views were? Like his social media accounts, his discord history?
None. There is zero definitive evidence of which side of the aisle he is on. The right wants him to be left and the left wants him to be right. Some on the right want justice, some want vengeance. Most on the left are celebrating either way, some didn’t agree with Kirk but didn’t believe he should die for his views.
Then you have the people in the center of the aisle that just want to be left alone and don’t care. Both the left and right hates these people.
And a fair chance he isn’t on any side in particular. The team sports model of politics isn’t everything…
Completely agree. I’m a center aisle guy myself. Hell, I don’t even wanna be center. I don’t even wanna be in the same room 😂
Aisle is the word you are looking for.
Nope. You could use what info there is to make an argument either way. But people just want to be right to the extent that they go with whatever they want to be true I guess.
Imagine someone engraving bullets with “Heil Hitler” and doing salutes on his socials.
Is it conclusive proof he’s a nazi? I guess not, but it’s a pretty big fucking hint.
Dunno about his socials (because really I couldn’t care less who killed that piece of shit), but pretending the bullet engravings were anywhere near as clear as “heil hitler” would be can’t be serious. It’s more like if he had some random version of pepe engraved on them. Hints that he could be a groyper but by no means conclusive.
His mother posted photos where he recreates groyper memes
He didn’t carve heil Hitler though. He carved anti fascist messages that have been co-opted by the far right to make fun of the left. The messages can be interpreted either way.
I guess taking photos where you recreate pepe the frog memes is all just a funny coincidence.
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There is no conclusive evidence yet and people need to fucking stop pretending there is.
fr, we don’t need to swing right back the other way
let the right make unproven claims, and then bury them for it after, if appropriate
and in any case, we can still say that Kirk was a shitty person, that we do not mourn his death, that the world is better off without his messages of hate; and none of that is at odds with holding the view that he shouldn’t have been killed, even if he himself is on record stating that democrats should be killed.
I’m annoyed by all the partial context quotes of Kirk’s, too. he said enough bad shit that has full context that we don’t need to exaggerate the possibly-misleading stuff at all
Agree except for just letting the right make unproven claims. The consistent message right now is no one knows.
Besides, the shooter was an individual, his specific ideology doesn’t by itself say much about the “left” or “right”.
I just want to appreciate the eloquency of your statement. I have been saying essentially the same thing, but not quite put as well, so I am stealing this!
I’ve also been saying I wish it was a true judge and jury that would have locked him away and silenced his hatred instead of some vigilante, but that is when I am feeling like irritating specific people.
then bury them for it after
after what? after they start killing/jailing innocent people they deem “radical leftist”?.. after they take complete control of the narrative? (they are 98% there)
Yeah. I don’t get what is so hard about people questioning things even if they want to believe them.
The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming, though. The kid was born in crackerstan. Non-Republican’s there are about as common as non-whites. He’s the result of a long-term breeding experiment that investigates what would happen if you concentrated all the most gullible/ignorant people into a single space. Their Republican governor literally prayed to their god, that the person guilty of the crime was an outsider/other that they could all openly admonish and attack. acknowledging in a Freudian manner, just how bad and demented people in the area are because of the cult. His whole family are sympathizers for the fascists.And much like Mormonism is the dumbest of an already dumb religion. He somehow found a dumber sect than the dumbest sect of politics his family was already in.
About all the kid was confused and conflicted. Generally very conservative and Republican by any measure.
The kid was born in crackerstan. Non-Republican’s there are about as common as non-whites.
this is demographics, not evidence.
He’s the result of a long-term breeding experiment that investigates what would happen if you concentrated all the most gullible/ignorant people into a single space.
???
Rest of post is a screed about how you don’t like Utah. Not evidence.
I have seen no evidence either way this guy was a leftist, or a groyper, or anything. People out there WISH he was something so they can wrap this whole thing up and explain it away, without acknowledging that people with fulfilling lives and hopeful futures don’t do things like this.
His whole family are sympathizers for the fascists
So are mine, and here I am, posting on lemmy.ml
Slow your roll. Post evidence or stop muddying the waters.
I never said it was evidence. You simply took the least relevant portion of a full statement to misrepresent it. The full statement was that their political diversity wasn’t any better than their ethnic diversity, which you have agreed is factual demographics.
Of all the stupid things Missourians have done, us running the Mormons out of the state wasn’t one of them.Utah is run by a conglomeration of multiple cults, including the Mormons and Republicans. The Mormons explicitly disassociating and ostracizing anyone who dares question them from their families and friends. Was my phrasing sensationalist and incendiary? Yes. Is anything I just said wrong? No. They actively ostracize anyone intelligent enough to show a critical thing.
Above all I think the kid is confused, conflicted, and mentally unwell. Which in our current environment is no condemnation of him. I think we all struggle with it. Now, its also quite clear he comes from a heavily right winged background, which I think even you cannot deny.
Hell, I would say that you personally empathize with the kid mistakenly or not. And only any monster like Kirk would ridicule empathy. That said, you should probably also know better than anyone that it’s almost impossible to escape cults. There’s been no evidence that this is the case with him.
Though I’m not sure how posting from Lemme. ML is a good thing though? The greater fediverse, sure. As a rule, I tend not to attack people I see posting from there. Since at one point it was the only game in town, and there are people who still use it. Who don’t align with the political suppression and censorship there. But for those that do, Marxist Leninism is an ideology, so destructive and toxic. It only comes in second to fascism here in the United States because of its larger-scale irrelevance.
I’m amazed at all the people on this website convinced that there’s no such thing as leftists with conservative families.
As a leftist with almost all family being conservative: I wouldn’t be writing 4chan memes on bullets, if it was politically motivated it would be clear cut. Trans rights are human rights. Free Palestine. Seize the means of production. Not telling them they’re gay if they read something like it’s 2006.
That’s interesting speculation. But literally before you posted https://kbin.earth/m/[email protected]/t/1890755/-/comment/8863845
No one here said a leftist couldn’t have done this.
It’s called motivated reasoning. If you asked them outside of this context you would get the correct and obvious answer but now that their pet theory depends on it they will pretend there is no such thing.
Where’s the evidence he was? You’re talking about his family but I want evidence he is maga before I can relax. He was registered to vote but not as a Republican and there’s stories going around that he’s in a relationship with a trans woman? That doesn’t sound maga. But then again they’re not really an internally consistent group and it wouldn’t be the first time news outlets ran with fake trans stories so nothing I’ve heard is conclusive.
Do you actually have any evidence?
The trans roommate thing is a hoax. The right is just desperate to pin this on trans people so they can further their genocide
Yeah I’m leaning hoax as well but that’s kinda the point of the conversation right? Don’t jump to conclusions this early on, there’s not a lot of evidence yet and it’s very far from reliable
Don’t disregard all evidence just because one side is actively trying to deflect blame. That’s what they want you to do. Yes you should always be critical and double check sources, but they’re purposefully trying to muddle the waters and cast a shadow of a doubt for cover
That’s how fascism thrives. MLK warned about complacency
E: typo
Don’t disregard all evidence
they’re purposefully trying to m[u]ddle the waters
What? You’re saying don’t disregard it and disregard it at the same time lol. I would hope it’s obvious you should skeptically consider all evidence
Lots of MAGA people date trans actually. We really don’t know anything concrete about his views or why he did this and people need to accept that.
They were just roommates though.
Most outlets seem to be reporting it’s a romantic relationship but I’m not sure what evidence there is for this, if any.
I’m sure it happens but given the anti trans rhetoric of the right it is more uncommon. Agreed though we just don’t know anything reliable yet. I think speculating is fine too as long as it’s not framed as anything but speculating
Well, I don’t have direct experience but I’ve heard from some trans women that some conservative men have an obsession with them exactly because it is transgressive. So I’m not sure if it is more or less uncommon.
You ignoring the evidence put forward doesn’t make it not exist. Do better.
I’m asking you for the evidence. Did I overlook something?
You should know that Lemmy is generally a misinformation factory, there’s real people interacting all over the place but there are so so so many bad faith actors here that you should basically take anything said here as a biased statement.
Trust yourself and seek reputable sources
Reputable sources are harder and harder to come by these days. Like terrifyingly so
And ought to be considered not present here in the comment section
We don’t know all the facts. He could just as easily be a leftist. I hate that it matters so much because either way, he had some demons to be able to do that. I see people on the right just as sure he’s a leftist and I despise the idea that people would rather push a narrative than know the truth. Sadly, people on the right will always blame a leftist no matter what now and vice versa. I would prefer to know the truth whatever it is. And yes I know that historically what the odds are here. Truth matters though. Let’s not stoop to immediately making a decision and ignoring facts that come out later.
No one here said a leftist couldn’t have done this. What people are saying is that due to clear circumstantial evidence, there’s very little chance he is a leftist. Many of these pieces I just recited to you. But if you truly think it is just as likely that he is a leftist, why don’t you read off five or six circumstantial markers that you think indicate this?
What Internet people don’t understand is that it’s possible to not jump to a conclusion. It’s easy in fact. Which is why I’m trying not to and asking for others to as well. You’re asking me to argue for something I don’t believe. I’m waiting for actual evidence. Not some vague shit or lies from Cox
that’s the thing: circumstantial evidence is evidence, it’s just evidence you don’t like apparently
I’m really sorry you feel threatened by the idea of skepticism and need to lash out at strangers, accusing them of harboring secret and evil motivations.
accusing them of harboring secret and evil motivations.
okay time for you to take a break from the internet
Totally agree. It’s bizarre to see you get downvoted for not wanting to jump to conclusions. Do people here think we’ll all suddenly turn maga if he is a leftist or that it serves us at all to be wrong about him? If anything I’m pushed away from this community seeing shit like this
Yeah, social media is the worst invention of all time. Even when talking with people you agree with 90%+, they can’t wait to jump on you and prove you’re a secretly impure or destructive force to the things you claim to agree with. It’s fucking bizarre but it’s consistent.
Browsing r/conservative, it’s way worse for sure on this conclusion-jumping issue, but I am saddened to be on this platform right now where you cannot even suggest waiting for evidence without people getting mad at you.
So what you’re saying is that you have nothing? Not a single solitary fact, that you can point to that might indicate his possible left-leaning stance. Just on the face of it, over 70% of political violence in the United States comes from right-wing sources, less than 10% from left. By those numbers alone, it’s a fairly safe assumption he probably wasn’t at leftist.
Those currently in power are actively trying to frame it as a leftist to justify current and future abuses of innocent people.There’s nothing wrong with pushing such a well-founded assumption as the likely truth. in the face of their propaganda. But refusing to push back against unfounded accusations against those who would be our allies. Shows that you are not likely their ally.
But, you know what? I take it all back. Your complete and utter lack of anything at all to point to has convinced me.
You’re asking me to argue for something I don’t believe
I’m done here. I’m encouraging skepticism, you’re mad about it. Deal.
LOL, I’m not mad. Gauging from your frustrated response, I’d say you’re projecting a little. I’m simply pointing out that skepticism for skepticism’s sake is no boon. The first couple of days, it was absolutely the call. But the longer this has gone on, the more that has come out. The more transparent, the more desperate the actions of the fascists in power to try to paint this on leftists has become. They can’t point to any leftist literature that he had.They can’t point to any of his actions, or behaviour to show it either.
First, it was just that he himself was trans. When that narrative blew up in their face, then it became about this trans roommate. That everyone knows exists, but no one can find or get even an anonymous quote from. Not that a trans person “existing“ would radicalize someone.
While we hem and haw debating the accuracy of the things they throw out in bad faith. They have and will trample/slaughter the truth regardless. Considering the agenda and incompetence of those running the show. We should spend more energy being sceptical of anything they put out. It will be framed and misrepresented to suit them at best. At best.
me: the fuck is a groyper?!?
Ugh stop posting this stupid shit. We don’t know enough yet
Neo nazi shit heels from 4chan
I thought it was a made up name for GOP-er aka a member of the republican party. Didnt realize it was more targeted than that. Also, i didnt know who nick fuentes is, so i guess ill count myself lucky
“Groyper” is a corruption of goy / goyim, right? A Yiddish word for non-Jews.
From what I’ve been told: Nick Fuentes
fanscultists.the name is widespread enough to have a wikipedia article
It was Serbian alien from planet Nibiru (whole universe is Serbian, God is serbian too) you don’t believe me, ask Jovanka Jolić she knows everything.
Ok, I am not saying he wasn’t, but would somebody mind explaining to me exactly why everyone is so ready to declare he is right-wing?
He’s from a morman family, but that doesn’t necisserily mean shit, the most left person I know was raised by mormans.
He also was saying Kirk was too hateful. That does not sound like words from a 4chan incel to me.
And the bullet casings were distinctly antifa, also seems like not a right wing nut to me.
I only ask because I am honestly concerned that the rhetoric around his politics is getting hijacked by people trying to make him a right winger to hide the fact that the left is not afraid to kill.
Edit: Thanks to everyone who took the time to explain what indicates he is a Groyper. And thanks in advance to any more info people share!
He also was saying Kirk was too hateful
This information comes from a misquotation. One example of the story with this information has the full context:
Cox said that a family member of Robinson had told investigators that at a recent family dinner, Robinson had mentioned Kirk’s upcoming event at Utah Valley University, and “they talked about why they didn’t like him and the viewpoints that he had,” Cox said. “The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate.”
Note that the family member is the one who said “Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate.” But it has been repeatedly misattributed.
Lefty ex Mormons absolutely exist. And I’ve met several here. But I think all of them, if they were being honest. Would absolutely tell you that they are the exception and not the rule.
4chan incells constantly say everyone who disagrees with them are too hateful because they push back against what the incells say.
The memes on the bullets weren’t clearly antifa. As others have pointed out they’re ironic cultural re-appropriations by fuentez’s community. Precisely because it muddies things and implicates those they see as enemies. It’s a common, fascist tactic to distort and dilute the meaning of things.
There’s been nothing meaningful and verified found that implicates him as a leftist. No literature, no behavior.Or any meaningful indicators whatsoever. Just speculation from someone at Fox and “LOL memes“.
Don’t get me wrong, there’s been Some information possibly from the other side, such as the Photoshop of him in a Trump shirt that has been proven fake.
No one is trying to portray it as the left not being able to kill or commit acts of terror. Everyone is simply pushing back on clear, transparent, fascist propaganda to victimize innocent people. Justifying the violence, they’re already committing. Had much of the media sphere and the President of the United States not already tried using this as a justification to continue attacking innocent people. I would agree with the caution on assumption of the kids political leanings. But, civilly pushing back against fascists is no vice.
Supposedly the Fuentes lot had co-opted “Bella Ciao”, a classic and beautiful anti fascist song, for their own memes or whatever.
I listen to a lot of Knowledge Fight, where Fuentes is a recurring idiot, and haven’t heard of this there, but I am not a studious listener.
“Groypers” are what the followers of Nick Fuentes call themselves.
the shit written on the casings were references to memes they pass around in those circles, and there’s other reasons, including his internet activity to say he was a Groyper.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Shits like a duck, it’s prolly a duck.
What’s strange to me is the grandmother says they are all conservative, and the father says he got increasingly more into politics recently but doesn’t distance himself from it by saying their political beliefs differed.
I would have figured he would want to point out their beliefs differed if they were going to apart of an ongoing investigation.
It’s not that strange if you accept that he’s not a leftist.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Shits like a duck, it’s prolly a duck.
Well, that’s kind of the problem. As much as I want to believe it, it just doesn’t really fit. The things written to the casings… well I’m sorry, the only people I know writing “OwO what’s this” or “catch this fascist” are very left-wing.
Sure, it may be possible that they also ironically made fun of such things, but it’s definitely not the intuitive thoughtSo the only thing that actually would lead to that is his “internet activity” and yeah, that’s what the original person asked. What activity is known that really shows he was far-right.
that’s just it. The OwO what’s this is mocking furries, and is a meme groypers pass around alot.
“Catch this fascist <arrows>” is from helldiver’s 2, which is a somewhat-over-the-top display of the american kind of liberation. By which I mean, you bomb the shit out of things. the catch this with the arrows is literally the player calling in an orbital nuclear strike. The game is meant for you to understand that you’re not playing the heroes, but a lot of nazis and fascists still enjoy playing it; like how a large number of them love playing WH40k. The game lets them be openly fascist in a way that’s normally frowned on in society.
his internet activity includes being on certain discords in which groypers hung out, as well as comments on social media.
you can cast inferences all you want, but taken as a whole; it’s shaping up to a picture of him being a follower of nick Fuentes.
The OwO what’s this is mocking furries, and is a meme groypers pass around alot
Yeah, but… furries pass it around even more. Writing that on a shell like that would be super in character for many of my friends.
I don’t say that it’s impossible or that such people wouldn’t also do that in a mocking way. But saying that this is the intuitive thought is just wrong.
So the main answer should be just the activities. Being on certain alt-right Discord servers or something is a unique clear thing only those do. So when asking why he’s considering a groyper, those are the things you should say, since they’re actually… strongly indicating he truly was one and supporting them. Writing this stuff is maybe not a contradiction, but it’s definitely not a proof.
You can’t take it in isolation, though. And that was the point I was making, that you ignored.
If you want to take anyone’s life out of context like that, you can probably make Trump a leftist. You just have to ignore all the RWN bullshit.
Yeah, their governor is claiming he was romantically involved with a trans woman though. Could just be a roommate, but I imagine that would be hard to figure out beyond saying “hey were you guys romantically involved?”. Sounds as if she had been part of tipping off the police or at least giving them group chat messages or such.
Apparently the only source for that claim was a Fox adjacent person. And they are desperate to frame this in some way about being about innocent people.
As far as I’ve heard, the person was literally just his landlord, and was not trans, but just wore an animal onesie lol.
Say whatttt lol.
Didn’t Fuentes deny it though? Not that I’d put it past him to lie, but I don’t think there’s any hard evidence that Robinson was…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Charlie_Kirk#Evidence_and_leads
being able to deny involvement is sorta the point of stochastic terror
First I head about it. Though, would Fuentes really know? Not like he actually knows who most of his groupies are.
I hope you get another comment from someone who knows way more than I have picked up, but from what I can tell he apparently wore a Pepe costume and Nick Fuentes apparently was suggesting Kirk was a fascist. I’m not sure what Nick’s actual politics are other than despicable, but apparently he didn’t like how Kirk was doing fascism so I guess you can think Kirk is a fascist and support Fuentes. People are taking that and the furry aspect of the alleged engravings because apparently Fuentes fans lean into being furries. So overall it seems like a Pepe costume, furry reference, and fascist critiques are being interpreted by some to suggest groyper. Admittedly, I am not thoroughly convinced, but “If you’re reading this you’re gay LMAO” is some generic 4chan trash that I can’t imagine any actual anti fascists would want to be tied to. Stranger things have happened though.
To be specific, he wore an outfit and squatted in the style of a slav squat for Halloween in 2017, which was a popular meme at the time. Yes, there was a pepe slav squat meme. But if you look at the hat he’s wearing, it will match the hats worn by slav squat and not the pepe meme, which I think was actually a hoodie
I’ve been wondering about this too, thought I was just out of the loop but nothing I can find from a reputable source has really made me think he’s a right winger.
Like, maybe we can’t say for sure but to insist he’s actually extremely far right seems like a wild leap.
Yeah makes me feel this place isn’t much better than tankies. I’d like to have better proofs instead of jumping to conclusions just like that.
