For a place as left as Lemmy, the idea of shopping without disturbing people is surprisingly popular.
It’s like Socialism, don’t call it by its name and everybody likes it.
Well, that place sure ain’t fucking Costco, that’s for damned sure.
people lack spacial awareness in the grocery store because a supermarket is an example of hostile design. it is intentionally disorienting and overloads you with information
The fucking floor displays in aisles that create chokepoints, and then aisles that have a bunch of popular shit all together creating a traffic jam. And don’t get me started on the lack of manned checkout lines anymore. Self-checkout is adequate as express lanes (i.e. limited number of items, limited produce, no alcohol) but sucks if you are buying more.
I try to go later in the evening to avoid the rush.
The most annoying thing about the self checkout is the need for you to put the entirety of your shopping on the time you weighing plate to make sure that I’m not buying my weekly shop but then sneaking a bottle of water past the system.
At least the IKEA self checkouts don’t do that. They let me buy my Pœlēøïng in peace
i also bring my own shopping bags. the grocery store here (the only one, a walmart) disabled the scales because they don’t have the staffing to deal with all the false positives, i guess… but anyway, i’ve gotten to just taking the wireless hand scanner (which is much quicker than the register’s scanner) and scanning stuff in the cart and then bagging it right away–all right in the cart. only produce gets put up by the register, since it needs to be weighed anyway.
They let you buy your what? I promise I tried to look it up, but I had no search results.
It’s a cooking method
I have 5 dollars on it being some kind of dresser!
This is the core problem, right here. At a minimum, people need training to learn what information to ignore so you can navigate the whole thing. Even if you know the store’s layout, you still need to have the will to ignore advertising and disregard extraneous information. Being a fast reader that can do fast mental math, also helps tremendously.
Traffic flow is another problem. Wegmans is the chief offender here, IMO, by putting impulse items in massive crates that crowd the store entrance+exit combo. It amazes me that it’s not a fire hazard, because it makes entering the store a nightmare. But most grocery stores have awful choke points in produce, dairy, meat, and other high-traffic areas. And of course those are the stores that have no small carts or hand-baskets, obligating customers to gum up the works with big metal baskets that are 70% empty.
A better idea is a store that doesn’t flood your eye sockets with information you don’t absolutely need. Get rid of the special displays, end-cap bullshit, and vendor promotional stuff. Then, normalize all the price tags and include unit cost per lb/oz/L/whatever to make bargain hunting a snap. Then, measure the fucking carts and make sure that two can get by everywhere in the store. Finally, pick a store layout and stick to it. </rant>
I want to say that Aldi is already doing all of the right things, but I could be wrong.
Aldi is by far my favorite. No nonsense, good prices. You’re in, you’re out. I appreciate they don’t play games.
The only thing that might be a problem is that milk and butter is at the back. But that is actually fine because everyone goes clockwise around the aisles, and there is room to pass, so it flows really easily. You go past all the basics you might need in like a minute.
I always figured milk and butter is at the back to minimize refrigeration loss from the front door opening
Milk and butter is placed in the back of the store to increase the chances you will buy something as you walk by. Every grocery store does this.
that’s one reason, the other is that the large display coolers where those items are often located are just a wall of a large walk-in where other stock not on display is stored. those are along a side of the building, and the back wall is nearest the loading docks (usually) so those items can be rolled right from the incoming trucks to the cooler easily.
Lots of the time it is a fire hazard, but unless the Fire Marshall knows about it nothing gets done.
Fire code is usually checked when the building is built or if there’s a remodel, but otherwise most places can go a long, long time without a fire inspection unless there’s a specific complaint.
Reporting suspected safety issues to the Fire Marshall or Building Official is okay. You’re not being a Karen. Building and Fire codes are written in response to avoidable tragedies and should be followed.
That’s a good call. I kinda/sorta figured that the fire department would see it sooner or later, but that’s clearly not the case.
Fire Marshalls in many places are way too bust for random safety inspections. They’re reviewing plans, inspecting new buildings and remodels, and sometimes also doubling as the city’s arson investigators. And in some jurisdictions they’re also the fire chief.
Fucking Weggels… [what we call it at work] Those stores are laid out like some kid did a drawing and used AI to make a store out of it.
I need some gluten free crackers for my sister in law for Christmas, are they in the cracker isle, the gluten free isle, the cheese section? Two stores near me don’t even place them in the same location.
Ohh glass bottles of water! Let’s recycle! They’re in bulk this week, next week they’re in the water isle, next week the fancy drink isle.
Just try find and track the price per kg of a good, and you are in deep shit. Its some times hidden, after several “get the app”, “two for one” just to find out the good is fucking more expensive if you refuse go though the privacy invasing hoops. What the fuck happended to “Limited time offer until this actually cheap batch is sold out!”
This must be a regulation in Canada or something because $/100g is always on the bottom for the tag in small print.
I don’t think you realize who runs grocery stores. Most are just there because they have to be. They just throw it on the shelf and do what they are told.
The people stocking the shelves aren’t the ones designing the store layout, dummy.
Rude. I worked as a grocery manager for 15 years.
Dummy.
did you design the store layout?
Did you? Do you know how most are laid out? Please enlighten me on their “information bombardment”.
A team from corporate designs the general layout, and the layout of most of the shelves, sometimes with help from an outside firm. Occasionally there will be specific shelves or event spaces that don’t have a planogram will be laid out by someone in-store, but this is usually a pretty small percentage of the store.
it’s the who does the telling who creates the hostile design. the other things you’re describing, the dehumanization of the employees, are part of that design
There isn’t anyone saying it’s a hostile design. You don’t know what you are talking about.
One article that I can’t even fully read? Hardly call that evidence. It’s an interesting hypothesis. However in practice impulse buys are not what the discussion was. It is that the entire store is there to “bombard” you. It’s not. It’s categorized and that’s about it. You are thinking of the “sales” area. Which is routinely paid for by vendors.
okay. there’s been research out about the disorienting nature of of grocery stores since the 1970s when piggly wiggly was first normalizing a certain sales area experience.
and yes. i am talking about the sales area. i wae never trying to claim otherwise. the context this entire time was the experience of being a customer inside a building whose only purpose is to extract value from you as you try to acquire basic living necessities.
and impulse buys in that context are a desired outcome of the overwhelming experience.
is your objection just my use of the word bombard? i can use a different word. overstimulate you. better?
like i can find more articles this was just literally the first thing i found and i hoped it would point you in the right direction and help you understand. but reading your comment here it almost feels like you’ve taken such great offense to how i’ve worded this that you can’t be bothered to engage with what i’ve been saying since the start
The stores are told on a corporate level that items need to be stocked on certain shelves and all essential items (milk, eggs, whatever) need to be buried in the back behind anything that’s on sale so customers have to look at everything before getting the basics.
Workers are people who follow orders and have to live with the chaos and help customers actually find the item they’re looking for even though the company as a whole is the problem
No they aren’t. They have reset crews that come and change the layout for many reasons. I was a grocery manager for 15 years. Specifically the stocking manager. There has never been a “bombard them with information” directive.
It’s what sells best in the area and make it available. It’s not that highly coordinated.
Can we also make people who still pay for things at a store with a check go to the bad one? It was before the pan, but I couldn’t believe what I was seeing when a lady pulled out her checkbook in front of me at the checkout line. Gtf outta here.
The USA continues to baffle me. You people still have paper checks? I haven’t seen one in at least 30 years in Europe (before that I was too little to care about such things, so I might never have seen one)
Sadly, we still do. But it’s really more a matter of vendor preference these days, since some places (usually small/personal operations) don’t do digital payments. That and nobody carries large amounts of cash around, so checks are the only alternative.
That said, anyone that hasn’t moved on to prefer a bank card or credit-card is behind the times, or doesn’t have a bank account. Still, it’s rare to see these days, especially at the grocery store.
Skiddly woop wopp
I know the point of this thread is “ugh, people, man” and it’s not really meant to be engaged with deeper than that, but this is a really bad idea. It would be used to justify racism and ableism and would be a really unpleasant place to be in, too. Karen city, with no one to speak out about it.
Imagine that spike of anxiety at the check-out where you feel rushed because you’re at the front of the line, but instead of it being mostly in your head it’s now a real thing with real consequences. That’s my nightmare
Imagine that spike of anxiety at the check-out where you feel rushed because you’re at the front of the line, but instead of it being mostly in your head it’s now a real thing with real consequences.
For a bit of fun, go visit a LIDL anywhere in Germany
Yeah. In fact, society is full of people who aren’t getting things 100% correct and we just have to be accepting of that. So i don’t like this post.
BUT: the fact that some people don’t get systems like this 100% all the time is proof that we should abolish car dependency and prioritise public safety precautions. [r/FuckCars]
Agreed. Fuck cars and accept that other people aren’t going to be perfect and that that’s okay for them to be.
society is full of people who aren’t getting things 100% correct
It’s fine, they will go to the usual stores.
Separate but equal, eh? Gonna introspect on that, or nah?
Someone in this thread went the extra mile and even called them “the shitty” stores. Which is nice. Brings the warm and cozies, that /s
It would be used to justify racism and ableism
But how?
People walking towards each other on the sidewalk usually subconsciously move out of each other’s ways. But there’s a hierarchy to these interactions that you’re probably only aware of if you’re at the bottom of it. White people tend to resist deferring to people of color. White women will rarely defer to anyone, expecting everyone to get it of their way. People of color will defer to white people, etc, etc.
If you break this subconscious hierarchy, people notice and assume you’re being rude or weird. Like if you move enough out of a white women’s way so that she, too, can move a little out of your way so that you both avoid each other (like equals would do), she might just walk into you. Or cuss you out for being rude. Or when I, a white man, defer to a person of color, it trips them up for a second.
Since this hypothetical grocery store is nothing but “don’t break unspoken rules about rudeness or you get kicked out” it means that a black person would need to act meek and submissive in order to avoid scrutiny and thus be able to stay. Meaning the rules would be more stringent against people of color, thus less people of color would be accepted, thus justifying their usual exclusion.
Ableism is super easy. Since this hypothetical prioritizes convenience over people, if you’re slow at something or need more accommodation, you’d get kicked out.
What a fascinating work of fiction you’ve just created. You should use it to write a really shit short story
Such a great piece of fiction that the phenomenon I just recounted has been lived by real people before
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackladies/comments/1202192/asked_reddit_why_white_people_dont_move_for/
Am… am I god?/s
So your proof is that a couple people on Reddit also think that?
Because the person in question might be an immigrant from a country where our supermarkets aren’t normal, or have a neurological disease you can’t see.
In that example it’s not racism, i think
Racism isn’t just when a person thinks their race has superior ability. It’s also when we design systems that statistically harm brown people. In my country a lot of racism is thinly veiled as dealing with illegal immigrants. We used to require that you know how to read in order to vote.
Immigrants are not always “brown”.
Nor were all illiterate people.
I love how wanting people to be courteous and respectful of others is racist. I just want people to realize that they’re not alone in the world, and to please move your cart to the side of the goddamn aisle.
You’re completely missing the point. The idea can be fine on it’s face, but it will very quickly be used to otherize the undesirables.
That’s entirely true.
But that’s still a double-edged sword we’re playing with.
If you want to run towards a an “inevitable conclusion” in the one direction (resegregation… undesirable… are you even alluding to genocide?)
I think it’s fair to do the same in the opposite direction too. Is there no lower bound for human interaction and behavior? Is it wrong to set boundaries for how people treat you?
I like how hyper aware people are for things that could be turned into an avenue for bad things. I think that’s actually more than half the battle. Doesn’t always mean you toss the idea outright, you just know that you gotta watch out.
I, for one, am in favor of a minimal demonstrated set of awareness and capacity to operate a motor vehicle. I also am in favor of not letting people drive drunk. Someone might say this will inevitably turn into a tool of racism. And guess what, THEY’D BE RIGHT! But, the solution probably isn’t to ban cars, or to let anyone drive with no rules of the road and drive drunk.
Yeah, the solution is to orient society in such a way where the operation of a deadly, several ton method of conveyance isn’t a requirement to participate in the world. Public transit, biking, and people-oriented spaces. Fuck cars
Fine. The person operating the subway train. Should they be drunk? Should they have needed to demonstrate competency in operating a subway?
Yes, because that would be their job and they wouldn’t be excluded from society if they fail to live up to that. They’d just take public transit like anyone else.
I’m saying “systems need to be oriented towards people and how they act, rather than punishing people for being unable to act in a way that they’re not wired for”. This hypothetical grocery store punishes people for being minorly thoughtless to spare other people the indignity of having to say something or silently suffer with the minor inconvenience.
It takes a human interaction with low stakes and turns it into a systemic interaction where harm to people becomes an abstract thing, so harm tends to become more prolific.
I could get behind you on this if the post was saying that all grocery stores must have that limitation. In the subway example, it’d be like saying that the only labour that exists is being a subway driver. The calculus changes when, like you said, it’s mandatory.
Not what I’m fucking saying, but good try. Something being used to justify racism isn’t saying “this is on its face racism” its saying “racists will use the stringent, strict rules of this place to deny people of color access to this space”. All of these complaints are things that everyone does to some extent, you just get frustrated by them when you’re probably already frustrated.
People of color take up more space in white people’s heads, so they get more policing of their behavior even if it isn’t justified. A group of white boys being loud in a grocery store get head shakes and “boys will be boys” comments. A group of black boys being loud in a grocery store get followed around by security and white women clutching their purses.
Also fun how you sidestepped the ableism I brought up in that same sentence. Cause you know there’s no fucking argument there, huh?
I thought both arguments were stupid and so I chose to not continue typing. I guess everything can be used to discriminate against someone, so fuck it, let’s do nothing! Yawn yawn yawn.
Wow, false dichotomy much? I get it, you liked the idea and think me attacking it is like me attacking you. Once you grow up, you’ll realize that not everything is about you.
Sorry, I meant if you grow up.
You’re really aggressive, man
Yeah, I tend to be perceived that way. I’d rather be seen as aggressive than be a polite asshole
You tend to be perceived that way because you act that way.
Not sure why you felt I attacked you, but that’s fine. We’ve obviously got different opinions on the matter, and that’s okay. If it’s because I called the argument stupid, I didn’t mean for that to be a reflection of you, it’s just the exact kind of false dichotomy you’re accusing me of here, and it’s tired and overused here and on Reddit.
The Karens are part of the problem. They would 100% be in the shitty store after the first trip.
Lol, you think Karens would be kept out of Karen heaven. Lmao, even.
Why is Lemmy like this
On an Idiocracy meme in shitposts someone was talking about not supporting eugenics.
Probably because Idiocracy unintentionally supported eugenics which is a really bad message.
Oh my god I’m still stewing over that exact same post. It’s been like a week.
Bruh, I got autism. This person decided to create a hypothetical grocery store instead of just saying “what’s the deal with people in grocery stores? Why are they always in my way?”
You make a hypothetical system as a funny observation, I’m going to shit on the hypothetical before anyone thinks its an actually good idea. Cause people do that shit. Like a whole lot. Check the person who’s trying to defend it as a good idea for an example
Demi Adejuyigbe made a parody of racism in his stand-up special “Demi Adejuyigbe is going to do one (1) back-flip” where he said all Latina women were 6’2" and people started parroting that shit back to him with no introspection on what the fuck they were saying.
Cool, I also have autism. So does like 80% of the users on this network. Ok?
Thanks for the whacky anecdote. That and the original post are bad jokes.
“People can’t drive!”
“What’s the deal with TALL LATIN WOMEN”
They deserve zero attention and this post sucks. I am sorry you had to spend emotional energy on this instead of anything else. You are allowed to downvote and move on too. There’s too much of this garbage engagement bait to take issue with each individual “comedian” on micro blogs or comedy “specials”, or whatever. Including my dumb take comment, btw.
Anyway, eugenics bad.
Cool, I also have autism. So does like 80% of the users on this network. Ok?
Thanks for the whacky anecdote. That and the original post are bad jokes.
“People can’t drive!”
“What’s the deal with TALL LATIN WOMEN”
They deserve zero attention and this post sucks. I am sorry you had to spend emotional energy on this instead of anything else. You are allowed to downvote and move on too. There’s too much of this garbage engagement bait to take issue with each individual “comedian” on micro blogs or comedy “specials”, or whatever. Anyway, eugenics bad.
I can place an order from home, drive to the store and they’ll set the groceries in my trunk not even expecting a tip.
If I spend 10% more, they’ll bring it to my door. We kinda did that already in the US
I remember my days as a cashier when a guy in his 50s came up to buy something and was just like “I don’t know how this works my wife does the shopping”. I just scanned his items and gave him the total. Once again he couldn’t understand.
I had to give this grown man step by step instructions on making a purchase. Including how to use a card for payment.
It was wild. Even in a world where his wife does the shopping has he never ran into a gas station for a snack or gone to lunch on his own?
Even in a world where his wife does the shopping has he never ran into a gas station for a snack or gone to lunch on his own?
When you willfully reject responsibility, you don’t think clearly. Human capabilities like pattern recognition will be ignored.
Could just also have been outright fear. Waaay too many people did this for computers in the 90’s and 00’s They hit something they don’t understand and they just freeze.
I had this nurse out of state. She had worked her entire life on paper. Xeroxed forms, filled them out, filed them. She was only in her 30’s. We were a big healthcare company, and she started working for us. We had a strong need to have things digitized. She had just convinced her coworker to key in all her forms after she took care of them, but the situation was untenable. Her boss called me, we need her to have her own computer so she can learn to use it. AOK, I configured and mailed one right away.
Boss calls me back, a week later. so and so can’t get on. OH OK!, what’s the error? You’ll need to talk to her. That’s fine can you put her on? Ohh um she just left. K, can you have her call me when she gets back and we’ll sort it out right away.
A day goes by, Two, Boss calls me, So and So still can’t get on. She never called me, yeah let me put her on the line.
[muffled argument]
[long silence]
soandso: meekest voice hello
me: HI! let’s get you on your laptop, this should only take a second.
soandso: mumbles
me: i missed that, what was that?
[long silence]
me: I hear you can’t get on your laptop, let’s fix that. Did your password just not work? where did you get stuck?
[long silence]
soandso: mumbles
me: I can’t hear you, if you speak up a touch, we’ll get you going
[long silence]
soandso: almost a whisper I don’t know what to do
Me: quiet and reserved, shooting for soothing ok, that’s not a problem, we’ll go through step by step until it works, do you have the laptop in front of you?
soandso: a whisper yes
Me: is it open?
soandso: a whisper no
Me: ok, lets open it up, do you see a button on the front, you’ll need to press that and pull up on the lid
[long silence]
soandso: light sobbing it’s still in the box
me: [internally: JESUS] ok, no proble, let’s get that box open
90 minutes, in an hour and half, we got the box open, got the laptop out, opened it up, too a 5 minute break to sob and then re-collect herself. found the power button (this took 10 minutes alone) it was on the upper right of the keyboard, she made me walk her up from control, to shift to enter and so on. It came on, it was already setup for their wifi, all she had to do was enter the username and password which i had emailed to her boss and asked her to write it on a sticky.
She finally was on the desktop
soandso: morose now what
me: We’re done, you’ll need to work with your boss now to find out how to do your actual work on it, but you should be able to get in now.
She lasted another week before they fired her.
She was an RN, she knew medical coding, and she drove, she was just terrified of learning new shit
It might be a matter of just being under a rock for the last 10-20 years. Retail PoS systems have changed quite a bit in that time, but how you interface with gas pumps and dining, hasn’t changed at all.
Also: a lot of folks navigate digital systems by rote memorization and don’t read or think all that much. If you throw a new interface in front of them, just sit back and watch the bewilderment. Gotta give people like that time to learn it all.
Gas pumps no, grabbing a bag of chips from the gas station yes.
Sit down restaurants no, fast food restaurant yes*
*unless he only does drive thru
Working retail, or any job with the public, is wild.
😂🫣 I feel attacked (neurodivergent)
Yeah I’m gonna venture a guess and say the poster in the image is not a particularly nice person.
They would go out of business immediately. Not enough customers.
I’d go daily to hopefully help keep them open.
Split queues for casual groceries and ranked competitive groceries
Speedrun ALDI Any%
TempoTom: Tesco Speedrun https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqxtqKzoINmKbhFoBzcAfDVQah7OuvYMO
This was excellent. Disappointed the YT algorithm doesn’t agree
“15 items or less” lanes should charge extra for going over. 0-20 no charge, 21+ = $1 per extra item (including the 16-20). That money goes towards whoever uses the register after you.
I’ll do one better.
Every extra item gets to be used against the customer to harm them.
The extra item is a can of tuna? Well, we’ll beat you with the tuna. The extra item is a hammer? Well, apologies my good man, but you know the rule.
We shouldn’t jump straight into violence, so how about after 5 minutes we’re allowed to beat them with anything from their cart, our cart, or the complementary whiffle ball bat?
That + worked any amount of customer service tbh
A few weeks ago I was at the store picking up a few things for my sick kid. The very first aisle I go to as I’m trying to leave it a lady pulls into the aisle to look at whatever was on the end cap and puts her cart right in the middle of the aisle so I can’t get through with my cart. She saw me, we made eye contact for a second and I moved to the right of the aisle. I get to the end and she’s just standing there, not even looking at stuff just looking at me waiting for her to move. After about 20 seconds I can’t believe I have to say anything so I just go “excuse me” and she scoffs and says “you’re fine”. Another 10 seconds and I have to say it again, “excuse me I’m trying to get through” and I don’t know what was going through her head but she started freaking out, “go ahead and get through then I don’t know why you’re standing there”. So I do just that, I used my cart to push hers out of the way (very intentionally just enough to get through) and she lost it. I just proceeded on my way but even after I turned down the next asile I needed something from she was still yelling. This was like 10:30 at night, the store was almost empty so there was plently of room.
This was in an expensive grocery store in a pretty wealthy area. In contrast on my way home I stopped at the poppy shop around the corner because they have a drink I like for a good deal and there was someone who looked like they were emptying their pockets by the trash can but checking out a couple receipts before throwing them away who was blocking the door, I said excuse me when I was a few steps away and he apologized, told me to have a great night and held the door open for me.
Glad the second encounter balanced out the first one. What a maniac.
So, you attempted regular social cues to communicate what you wanted, and when that failed you escalated to physical aggression and then got upset that the other person got upset?
Like, not trying to throw you under the bus or anything, you both miscommunicated in that situation but you were the one to escalate. If the other person didn’t know what they were doing wrong, couldn’t you have just told them “I’m so sorry, but I can’t get my cart around yours” when they didn’t get why you couldn’t get past?
It really sounds like you were both tired and didn’t have the grace in that moment for each other, rather than some failing on either of your parts.
I guess we found the grocery maniac.
If they were tired and unable to communicate (happens to us all mate) they would have been okay with their cart being moved. Getting angry at the cart being moved, after saying it was okay to go, is the tell that this person was not capable of polite reason.
“Physicial agression”, what the fuck have you been smoking? They said they pushed the cart away with their carts. Nothing agressive about that, wtf.
Yes, it is. It’s why they moderated that they did it as “very intentionally, just trying to get through”. Moving someone or their stuff without permission is an act of physical aggression. I’m not saying they punched them or anything, but there were aggressive in a physical manner.
You cannot be serious
Jesus christ you’re a snowflake if you think moving an object constitutes physical aggression.
We need to also test your ability to spend money. I swear people at self checkout act like they have never used a credit/debit card in there life.
But also at regular checkouts.
You’ve just stood there motionless for the last 4 minutes, while someone else (potentially two people) scanned and bagged your purchases for you.
How is it that JUST NOW is the time you’ve decided is right to rummage through your bag for your wallet/purse, or check your banking app on your phone to see if the account actually has money in it? What were you doing for the rest of the time that was so vitally important?
I swear you can just about hear the birds flying around in their head sometimes.
There’s one bird in their head that’s half alive just bouncing around like the DVD logo.
I worked in grocery stores when I was younger, not going to give away my age, but I will tell you that people wrote a lot more checks then.
The number of times I would get to the end of the transaction and tell somebody the total and they would slowly pull the checkbook out of their purse or pocket, then other questions, do you have a pen?,what’s today’s date?, Oops I wrote it out to the wrong store, I need to start over.
I was doing my chess puzzles
I used to work at this kiosk which was inside a café. A customer wanted to pay from the inside, which can happen, but it’s rare. Since the reader was cable wired to the plug at the window, I had to bring it to where he was standing, but the cable wasn’t long enough. I pulled it out as much as I could, and waited for him to step forward and reach out with his card in his hand.
He was just standing there, waving his card at the machine from ~3-4 feet away. Like, I don’t know, at one point the card reader would go “HEY, that card is Larry! Hi, Larry, how are you doing, you old sonofabitch?”
